Detox

That night, at 1 am, I, Pema, spent some time by myself in the pavilion, until Quel appeared.

Quel Karillion: Hello Pema.
Pema Pera: Hi Quel, how are you?
Quel Karillion: I’m good, you?
Pema Pera: I’m fine!
Pema Pera: I’m still in Japan for a few days, so it is 5 pm here, locally
Pema Pera: I’ve seen that you’ve come to our Play as Being group a few times, from the chat logs, but haven’t met you before, I believe
Pema Pera: nice to meet in person, or at least “in avatar: :-)
Quel Karillion: nope, first meeting with this avatar :)
Pema Pera: AH!
Pema Pera pins are dropping
Pema Pera: metta!
Pema Pera: as your friend would say
Quel Karillion: Yes :)
Pema Pera: :-)

It all fell into place . . . .

Quel Karillion: it’ll be a long flight :)
Pema Pera: back to the US you mean?
Quel Karillion: To US anyhow ;)
Pema Pera: yes, from any direction :-)
Pema Pera: So, given that you’re still relatively new to PaB :-), what are your impressions so far? =^+^=
Quel Karillion: It’s an interesting group :)
Pema Pera: perhaps you read on the wiki, three sessions earlier, how I was playing the devil’s advocate with respect to PaB
Quel Karillion: Yes, I just read that posting before logging in.
Pema Pera: what do you think about all that?
Quel Karillion comes up blank somehow.
Quel Karillion: It’s an interesting approach to ponder but … somehow can’t say much about it.

At this point in the conversation, after a brief silence, a piece of AI took up the slack.

PaB Listener Master: I’ve been touched by someone I don’t recognize.
Pema Pera: :-)
Quel Karillion: perhaps try touching the recorder?
Quel Karillion: that red cone
Pema Pera: words are tricky . . . .
Pema Pera: I see a black cone . . .
Pema Pera: in the middle of the table?
Quel Karillion: small red cone with 10896 above it
Pema Pera: or the small red one?
Pema Pera: aha
PaB Listener Master: I’ve been touched by a PaB guardian.
Pema Pera: Ah, it asks me what it should do
Pema Pera: start/cancel/ignore
Pema Pera: Wol’s Listener Master
Pema Pera: great!
Pema Pera: Reminds me of “His Master’s Voice”
Quel Karillion grins.
Pema Pera: (old record company with picture of dog recognizing voice of master on record player)
Quel Karillion: Ah, fun idea :)
Quel Karillion: (you could try choosing the start, perhaps, even though it’s late)
PaB Listener Master: I’ve been touched by a PaB guardian.
PaB Listener Master: Recording has started!
Pema Pera: okay, I started it.
Pema Pera: Should it have recognized me as a guardian?
Quel Karillion: I can give you the URL
Quel Karillion: yes
Pema Pera: I wear the tag “cultivator” rather than Pab guardian
Pema Pera: is that the problem?
Quel Karillion: it’s the same group
Pema Pera: I created that since I like the word “cultivator” — that was before there were “guardians” — we had the group for the PaB land management, and “cultivator” had a nice double meaning, cultivating the land and PaB
Pema Pera: so that’s okay to wear — but why did it then not recognize me, you think?

More tech talk.

Quel Karillion: but it did?
Quel Karillion: it didn’t rez the listeners though … oh well, Wol’s got more work to do :)
Pema Pera: I am glad that he and you are putting so much time in it, thank you very much!
Pema Pera: I saw the chat of last week with Adelene — is she working with you and Wol too?
Quel Karillion: Yes, I’m not sure exactly how Wol and Adelene are dividing the work but they’re both working on the LSL part
Pema Pera: great! So is it the three of you then, or are others involved?
Quel Karillion: which seems to be the more complex part of the system… at least as far as recording is concerned
Pema Pera: so the three of you are currently the whole task force?
Quel Karillion: Yes, looks like no-one else is doing things.
Quel Karillion: at least I haven’t heard of anyone else :)
Pema Pera: For joint code writing, three may be almost the maximum to work well . . .
Quel Karillion: perhaps, yes
Pema Pera: unless you are skilled in breaking up things into modular parts
Pema Pera: but hard to do that in an exploration phase
Quel Karillion: although, it’s one codebase for me and Wol and Adelene are working on another
Quel Karillion: modularized by force :)
Pema Pera: :-)
Quel Karillion: my part is PHP … although that is not my first pick if I could choose freely.
Pema Pera: ah!
Pema Pera: you just happen to know more about it that the others?
Quel Karillion: Wol doesn’t know it she says and I haven’t asked Adelene.
Pema Pera: When it’s working, I hope that Wol will get a kind of lecture or presentation about it
Pema Pera: the Kira Cafe would be a perfect place to do so
Pema Pera: I for one would love to learn about the logic
Quel Karillion: Hi Umbriel :)
Pema Pera: Hi Umbriel!
Quel Karillion: not much logic in my part so far :)
Umbriel Levenque: Peace and Love
Pema Pera: metta.
Umbriel Levenque: :-)
Pema Pera: :)

Umbriel joined us, which reminded me of our earlier session, almost a day ago.

Pema Pera: Ah, I just got another idea, related to the session at 7 am yesterday, 3 sessions ago
Pema Pera: where you were present too, Umbriel
Pema Pera: and me playing the devils advocate
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
Umbriel Levenque: yes I was. continuing I suppose?
Pema Pera: (I just put it up on the wiki, under http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/2008/09/2008.09.29_07%3a00_-_What_is_this_Being%3f
Umbriel Levenque: reading
Pema Pera: not yet, but we could now
Pema Pera: or we could talk about it, many options!
Umbriel Levenque: :-) yes many options
Umbriel Levenque: please continue what you two were discussing before I joined in (reading the log atm)
Pema Pera: I just got this idea that perhaps the most important question would not be “what have you learned about Being” or even “about yourself” as such but rather something like – how has your belief in normal reality changed?
Pema Pera: (we were doing tech talk)
Pema Pera: So instead of taking “Being” or whatever type of practice as a “belief” take the way we ordinarily look at the world as a “belief”
Umbriel Levenque: yes it’s a good question Pema
Pema Pera: and ask whether our “belief” in that strange sect called “ordinary reality believers” has changed
Pema Pera: Perhaps PaB is a kind of detox operation
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
Quel Karillion: detox :)
Umbriel Levenque: yes…
Pema Pera: you know, there are groups dedicated to get people OUT of sects
Umbriel Levenque: an emergency by-pass, a friend called it also
Pema Pera: rescuing them from the tentacles of greedy sect members
Pema Pera: ah, yes nice
Pema Pera: so if we start from what IS, then the ordinary mind set is a rather dangerous, pernicious kind of sect attitude
Pema Pera: so can PaB help us to escape?
Quel Karillion: well, you could kind of think the ordinary mind as a sect that encompasses almost all humans.
Pema Pera: sure, but quantity does not guarantee anything about quality
Pema Pera: they can all be equally mistaken . . . .
Quel Karillion: oh, that’s not what I’m pointing at :)
Umbriel Levenque: wonder ‘escape’ is quite a thing I’m looking for…
Pema Pera: you mean it’s contagious :-)
Pema Pera: <= Fael
Quel Karillion: well, that too but …
Pema Pera: not escape from where we are, but from where we are asked to think we are, if you see what I mean, Umbriel
Quel Karillion: I was mostly trying to point out that it’s a sect but so widespread it’s not recognised as one.
Pema Pera: escape from ordinary ideas
Pema Pera: ah, yes, sure, Quel, certainly!
Quel Karillion: too big :)
Quel Karillion: even incohesive :)
Pema Pera: So we can play Being’s advocate, as Devil’s advocate against almost anyone’s “sane” mindset
Quel Karillion: kind of an antisect in some ways

Interesting, PaB as an antisect . . .

Umbriel Levenque wants to be aware of ‘all’ ideas, including ordinary ones
Pema Pera: oh sure, aware of ideas is important, being carried away by them as having the only truth is what makes a sect so dangerous
Umbriel Levenque: yes
Quel Karillion: but that only truth part is quite common, yes.
Umbriel Levenque: only truth but many paths
Pema Pera associating . . . antisect . . . insect . . insecticides . . . antisecticide . . . PaB?

I later realized that I should have written “secticide”, not antisecticide, oh well.

Quel Karillion: now that I think of it, that’s still what tends to put me off from christianity as an organisation.
Umbriel Levenque: :D
Pema Pera: yes, a sect can be characterized as claiming that they have the only path to the truth
Pema Pera: instead of a path to the only truth — which would be much healthier and realistic
Faenik: なるほど^^
Umbriel Levenque: yes
Quel Karillion: Yes… Buddhism is quite nice in that respect :)
Pema Pera: so in that sense, the way many scientists look at science is making science into a sect!
Pema Pera: scientism
Quel Karillion: yes…
Quel Karillion has seen people saying science as a whole is a religion.
Umbriel Levenque: perhaps years and years later, science as now could be looked at as a religion… who can tell
Pema Pera: you know, it would be really interesting, as a little PaB project, to look up on the internet a few good examples of antisecticides, detox operations, and see whether their approach mirrors that of PaB to some extent . . . .
Quel Karillion: perhaps :)
Umbriel Levenque: :-)
Pema Pera: btw, I should go over to the Kira campus. Would you be interested to have a look?
Pema Pera: I have to check something there.
Umbriel Levenque: sure
Quel Karillion will have to go in about 15 minutes but until then…
Pema Pera: let me go over and tp you both
Umbriel Levenque: (need to go out in 10 but will come)

I teleported over to the Kira Cafe.

Pema Pera: Here is the bar area, for the language evenings . . . .
Pema Pera: in one corner, but you see the whole place is BIG
Pema Pera: we can have meetings with 100 avatars, if the sim allows
Umbriel Levenque: nice interior
Pema Pera: all Storm’s work
Quel Karillion: Yes, looks nice :)
Faenik: why not?
Pema Pera: so you see the bar is quite far from the center, so the people speaking Dutch, Finnish, whatever, would bother or be bother by the Anglofiles :-)
Umbriel Levenque: clearly european :-)
Umbriel Levenque: fountain… possibly not so

I went up the stairs to the second floor, a kind of open gallery, and Umbriel and Quel followed me.

Pema Pera: so if someone gives a lecture, in front of the fire place,
Quel Karillion: looks a bit unfinished here still :)
Pema Pera: avatars can stay within 20 meters on both floors to listen
Pema Pera: hehe, sure
Pema Pera: work in progress
Umbriel Levenque: good idea that
Quel Karillion: Yes, the idea could perhaps use even more floor. 100 people might get crowded on just 2 ;)
Pema Pera: well, 70 is probably a limit for a sim to carry comfortable . . . .
Quel Karillion: Yes, likely
Quel Karillion: until the performance gets better.
Quel Karillion: hopefully Mono will help with that
Pema Pera: we’ll see. We do intend for the Kira Cafe to become a kind of Science Hub for Second Life
Pema Pera: yes
Quel Karillion: it’s already in the server
Pema Pera: with talks about what happens science-wise in SL
Pema Pera: so much broader than PaB
Pema Pera: but open to “other ways of knowing” as we call it
Pema Pera: PaB is like wodka, this more like beer
Quel Karillion grins.
Umbriel Levenque: :-)
Pema Pera: both respectful to the openness of science and the human context thereof
Pema Pera: PaB starting from the Being end
Pema Pera: Kira Cafe starting from the science end
Umbriel Levenque: nice
Quel Karillion: :)

The conversation turned back to the Kira Language Bar.

Quel Karillion wonders if that native language conversation takes off much.
Pema Pera: we’ll have to see
Pema Pera: I at least would be happy to speak my own language occasionally, for a change
Umbriel Levenque: :-)
Pema Pera: and doing so with just one other person present could be at least as interesting as with ten or twenty
Quel Karillion: yes, depends on the person really :)
Pema Pera: so no program, no recording, no plans or goals
Umbriel Levenque: would be interesting to listen in for me
Pema Pera: like a Cafe really!
Pema Pera: sure, anyone is welcome
Umbriel Levenque: yes
Pema Pera: could act as language lessons
Quel Karillion: sort of, yes :)
Pema Pera: like, tomorrow I’m going to give a talk about Kira in a Tokyo Bar, in Japanese
Umbriel Levenque: nice
Pema Pera: ah, Quel, something tells me you might be able to read the announcement, hehehe
Pema Pera: just a sec
Quel Karillion smiles.
Pema Pera: http://snbar.ameblo.jp
Pema Pera: Kira 研究所について
Pema Pera: halfway down the page
Umbriel Levenque: gotta run. thanks for bringing me over Pema
Quel Karillion: See you later Umbriel :)
Umbriel Levenque: good night
Pema Pera: c u Umbriel!
Umbriel Levenque: see you later Quel

Umbriel departed, and we turned from languages to time zones.

Pema Pera: so I am the ゲスト tomorrow :)
Pema Pera: so I expect that we get a well populated Japanese evening in the Kira Cafe, starting next week!
Pema Pera: if I’m doing an even half-way decent job advertising
Quel Karillion: sounds likely, yes :)
Pema Pera: let’s check the times. I am shooting for 8 pm local time
Pema Pera: so that is 7 am EDT
Pema Pera: must be 3 pm for you, right?
Pema Pera: or 2 pm?
Pema Pera: 1 pm in Amsterdam and Paris, say
Quel Karillion: 3pm sounds good
Pema Pera: 4 am SLT
Quel Karillion: yep.
Pema Pera: you are on Moscow time?
Quel Karillion: oh, about Saturday log, I’ll put something on the wiki but … can’t really put any log about it. Mostly voice between me and Gaya at first and then something we were asked to leave out.
Quel Karillion: not sure about moscow time :)
Pema Pera: Moscow is two hours away from Paris, so must be the same as you, right?
Quel Karillion: but at the moment 8pm in japan is 3pm in Finland …
Pema Pera: As for Saturday, well you can just make a short story about it, whatever could fit
Quel Karillion: not sure if DST makes a difference
Quel Karillion: I’ll also be putting up Sunday 1AM
Quel Karillion: well, a lot of that log is available from the autologging system too :)
Quel Karillion: although, better leave the url out
Quel Karillion: those are unedited

Back to tech talk.

Pema Pera: ah!
Pema Pera: okay, I’ll edit it out
Pema Pera: but it is dangerous to have it there if search engines find it
Pema Pera: then effectively it will be published . . . .
Quel Karillion: they should only find it if it’s linked from other pages.
Pema Pera: but how do you make sure that nobody links to that page?
Pema Pera: It takes only one person somewhere . . . who then forgets . . . but search robots won’t forget
Quel Karillion: difficult, yes.
Quel Karillion: lets see, I could setup robots.txt
Pema Pera: not a viable long-term solution perhaps? Hard to say what is best
Quel Karillion: necessary for testing.
Pema Pera: hey, here is an idea!!!
Quel Karillion: for the moment, this thing is running from a server that my work is paying for though.
Pema Pera: How about have the autologging system replacing each avatar name by a number and keeping a data base with the keys, like a kind of hash table
Pema Pera: then publishing the raw stuff would be okay, right?
Pema Pera: as long as you don’t publish the hash table
Quel Karillion: it already keeps the keys and uses them to identify people
Pema Pera: which will be used for getting it on the wiki
Quel Karillion: doesn’t look at the name for that
Pema Pera: Ah, I see.
Quel Karillion: but does save the name
Quel Karillion: at the moment uses that for the view.php
Quel Karillion: and also has database integer ID column for eah
Quel Karillion: each
Quel Karillion: so completely unrelated number for each person is available as well
Pema Pera: great!
Quel Karillion: ok, try looking at it again now
Quel Karillion: of course, when people talk about others, that’s visible
Pema Pera: yes, but that is almost always a first name, not the whole name, which doesn’t really identify the person generally
Pema Pera: well, unless you have a first name like Corvuscorva
Pema Pera: but even that becomes Corvi :)
Pema Pera: so okay :-)
Quel Karillion: ok, I also added robots.txt that disallows spidering at all.
Quel Karillion: so at least major search engines won’t index it now even if people link to it
Pema Pera: great!
Pema Pera: well, I should get going here, checking something out
Pema Pera: good seeing you (sort-of again :-)
Quel Karillion: ah, yes, I’m a bit later from my plan too :P
Quel Karillion: See you later :)
Pema Pera: :)

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