Gene Pools, Cats, and Kakrafoon

Rowan Masala was the guardian for this meeting.  The comments below are hers.

Adelene was sitting peacefully in her own meditation when I arrived at the pavilion.

Rowan Masala: Hello Adelene
Adelene Dawner: hi :)

And Threedee joined us soon thereafter.  We tried to get a sense of what time of day it was for each of us.

Rowan Masala: Hello 3D
Rowan Masala: welcome
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Threedee Shepherd: hello folks
Rowan Masala: Adelene and 3D, where are you in RL? what time zone?
Threedee Shepherd: Colorado, MDT * PM
Adelene Dawner: New Jersey, here, Eastern time.
Rowan Masala: me too
Threedee Shepherd: 8 PM
Rowan Masala: ah, mountain time
Threedee Shepherd: the “forgotten” time zone
Rowan Masala: forgotten? in what way?
Threedee Shepherd: never gets mentioned when TV is announcing when things will be on

Prospero appeared next and joined in our chit chat about time zones.

Rowan Masala: Hello Prospero
Rowan Masala: welcome
Rowan Masala: ah
Threedee Shepherd: Then again, there’s only about 16 million people in the entire time zone :)
Rowan Masala: that’s a lot of people :)
Prospero Frobozz: Hey
Prospero Frobozz: Which is the forgotten time zone?
Threedee Shepherd: more than that in most metropolital areas
Threedee Shepherd: Mountain
Prospero Frobozz: I’m confused about time zones all the time ’cause I live in CST but work in PST….
Rowan Masala: ah yes, that would be confusing
Threedee Shepherd: telecomuting I hope :D
Prospero Frobozz: YEs
Prospero Frobozz: Otherwise, the commute would be murder
Threedee Shepherd: hehe

And then Steven…

Threedee Shepherd: Hi steve
Rowan Masala: welcome, Steven
stevenaia Michinaga: hello
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Rowan…smile
Adelene Dawner: Don’t mind me, I’m not entirely here. Rough day at work.

And we launched into our discussion of the 9-second practice.

Rowan Masala: how is the 9-second meditation going for everyone?
Prospero Frobozz: So, I’ve only been to one of these sessions before; apologies if I’m ignorant about protocol and such.
Rowan Masala: ah, well, I’m new as a guardian, so we’re in the same boat
Rowan Masala: do we have your permission to record your chat, Prospero?
Prospero Frobozz: Yes
Rowan Masala: thank you
stevenaia Michinaga: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Information/Play_As_Being_in_a_Nutshell
Rowan Masala: Adelene, I’m sorry you had a rough day at work
Prospero Frobozz has not been doing 9-second meditations, but is curious what folks’ experiences with it are. Are you able to really defocus within 9 seconds so that you really are able to reflect?
stevenaia Michinaga: this is a good starting point prospero
Adelene Dawner: Eh. Happens. I’m off for the next two days; I’ll be ok.

And where some of us deviated from the 9-seconds…

Rowan Masala: well, Prospero, to be honest, I find that 9-seconds doesn’t work for me
Rowan Masala: I tend to take longer periods a bit less often
Rowan Masala: but I think Pema’s concept of 1% of your time is a nice one
stevenaia Michinaga: Prospero, speaking generally, any tool or method if worked with intently has the ability to be productive, and refined in time
Adelene Dawner: I do the same, Rowan.
Rowan Masala: I just take it in a different way
Rowan Masala: what about you, 3D?
Threedee Shepherd: usually a bit longer than 9-sec, and often when I “need it” or it is an appropriate response to the moment
Rowan Masala nods
Rowan Masala: do you have a meditative practice, Prospero?
Prospero Frobozz: I don’t
stevenaia Michinaga: I know artist that can take any .5 mm pencil, for instance and produce art, it;s just a matter of focus, I belive any “method” of meditation can also produce…. something
Rowan Masala smiles
stevenaia Michinaga: so why not 9 second?

And Prospero brought up an issue I struggle with myself–how to quiet the mind…

Prospero Frobozz has always had a very hard time getting his mind to “quiet down” — even for going to sleep at night, for instance.
Rowan Masala: Steven and I have had this discussion before. I think I argued that the artist couldn’t produce very much if there wasn’t time for the pencil to reach the page
Prospero Frobozz: I guess one question I have about the 9-second meditation thingies is — do you really try to get your mind to quiet down? Or is it more self-observation?
Threedee Shepherd: some of both, for me
Rowan Masala: for me, I think it’s mostly about the pause
Prospero Frobozz: Rowan : some artists would be able to do something neat in 5 seconds, others wouldn’t… depends on the artist.
Prospero Frobozz: When you pause, do you just *pause*, or are there particular questions you ask yourself?
stevenaia Michinaga: I use breathing I leaned in yoga, a deep breath or two can change mental and physical states
Rowan Masala: I try to focus on my breathing as well
Threedee Shepherd: I try to not-ask
stevenaia Michinaga: focus on opening your mind and changing your perspective, the questions come
Prospero Frobozz: Onions
stevenaia Michinaga: for me at least
Rowan Masala: layers and layers?
Prospero Frobozz: Whenever I’ve tried to clear my mind, or stop with whatever I’m focusing, all that happens is I find other things on my mind… “gee, my foot is falling asleep” or “I will need to go to the bathroom soon”, or “hey, perhaps I could try using that method to solve that coding problem I haven’t thoughth about in three days”
Prospero Frobozz: (The first two came from right now, … TMI probably :) )
Rowan Masala nods, smiling
Rowan Masala: not at all TMI
Rowan Masala: I think it’s fascinating to find out what the experience is like for people
Threedee Shepherd: excuse, what’s TMI?
Rowan Masala: too much information
Threedee Shepherd: ah
Rowan Masala: have you ever tried counting your breaths, Prospero?
Prospero Frobozz: Rowan : not sure. I do things like count steps, count the number of times I stir, things ilke that…. in an OCD sort of way.
Prospero Frobozz: Sometimes at night when I’m having trouble going to sleep I try counting backwards, but generally I find that my thoughts have drifted and I’m actively thinking about something else before long….
Rowan Masala laughs–I know what that’s like–one of the reasons I had to shift from 9-seconds to “a few moments” is that I kept worrying about how long 9-seconds was
Threedee Shepherd: I have decided that if my head wants to race as I am trying to sleep, I will go with it and see what happens. Then again, I have the luxury of waking up when I want to.
Prospero Frobozz: Heh
Prospero Frobozz: Yeah, usually I just go with my mind racing, but sometimes I really want to go to sleep….
stevenaia Michinaga: have you meditated using any other ways before, Prospero?
Prospero Frobozz: I’ve found another solution recently to going to sleep fast, and that’s to stay up too late every night….
Prospero Frobozz: stevenaia : only sort of.
Rowan Masala: can you tell us a little bit about what it’s like to watch your mind race, 3D? that sort of mindfulness of the racing?
Prospero Frobozz: I’ve tried emptying my mind and just paying attention to what’s there… sounds in the enviornment that I’ve filtered out, that kind of thing. I don’t do it often.
Threedee Shepherd: I try to do a 9-sec type “observation” without judgment or conclusion, sort of turning it into a waking almost-dream
Rowan Masala: and what does that look like?
Threedee Shepherd: Hard to answer. I have always spent lots of “time in my head” though now (being retired and all that) it is not usually coupled with anxiety.
Rowan Masala smiles
Rowan Masala: nice to know that there’s an end to anxiety out there for some

Starseed joined us for a few moments, but never spoke…

Rowan Masala: hi Starseed
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Starseed
Rowan Masala: welcome
Threedee Shepherd: hi
Rowan Masala: forgive me, I’m new at guardianship, so I don’t know you. have you been to PaB meetings before, Starseed?
Threedee Shepherd: Yes, I wonder what would have been had I reached this state years ago, oh well ;)
Adelene Dawner chuckles.

9-second cat meditation…

Rowan Masala: Steven, I think you suggested once that we pause when the chimes ring, and meditate for 9 seconds as a group then
Rowan Masala: can someone with better sound tell us when it chimes?
stevenaia Michinaga: I’ll try to remember, thanks
Rowan Masala: oh, and my cat is trying to lie across my keyboard, so any odd typing is him, not me :)
Prospero Frobozz: heh
Prospero Frobozz: I get that
Prospero Frobozz: My cats like to rename the hard drive on my mac
Rowan Masala: oh my!
Rowan Masala: do they have favorite names?
Prospero Frobozz: }{:ll0…
Prospero Frobozz: mostly
Rowan Masala: ah yes, such a powerful name in feline
Rowan Masala grins
stevenaia Michinaga: careful, my laptop vacuums cat hair better than you can imagine
Rowan Masala: I find snuggling with my cat to be very meditative
Threedee Shepherd: Interesting about anxiety and even annoyance (there is some now at a RL situation), I just noticed once again that the *only* one I am *arm-wrestling* is me :D
stevenaia Michinaga: so said my apple repair man
Prospero Frobozz: They’ve also turned on various desktop features (like, once, an accessibility option so that it spoke the name of every icon I clicked)
Prospero Frobozz: They never tell me how to turn them back off
Prospero Frobozz: Threedee : true re: anxiety and annoyance, although sometimes there’s an external arm-wrestle fuelling the internal one
Rowan Masala: I can become so absorbed in the sound of his purr and the feel of his fur, it’s as if the rest of the world disappears
Prospero Frobozz: That sounds like meditation to me :)
stevenaia Michinaga: you ahve 9 second cat moments
stevenaia Michinaga: GONG
Rowan Masala: ah, chimes
Rowan Masala: 9 seconds everyone
Rowan Masala: ok
Rowan Masala: I think that’s about 9
Prospero Frobozz: Heh

Continuing with the discussion of external v. internal sources for anxiety…

Threedee Shepherd: Prospera. The external usually has a real aspect to deal with. The internal I am making up to no good end :)
Prospero Frobozz: I started late
stevenaia Michinaga: I agree, threeD, that is a choice how it affects you
Rowan Masala: The external v. internal anxiety issue
Rowan Masala: a very interesting one as it relates to Being
stevenaia Michinaga: there is no external anxiety, is there
Threedee Shepherd: no, there is not
Prospero Frobozz: But there can be external sources of stress, assuredly.
Rowan Masala: yes
stevenaia Michinaga: yes
Rowan Masala: and for those who are more externally focused, particularly so
Threedee Shepherd: stress is the *feeling*, anxiety is a later judgement or evaluation that is a choice, even if I don’t realize it at the time.
Threedee Shepherd: as in stress happens, anxiety is invented ;)
Rowan Masala: I agree that we create the situation in our mind that leads to anxiety, but I think that’s the same with stress
Prospero Frobozz: “Create” is such an active term, though… sometimes creating stress in our own minds is very unconscious. E.g. the stress you get when a loud noise goes off unexpectedly behind you — autonomous reaction.
Threedee Shepherd: stress has physical comcometants that have alot to do with rational survival goals, I suggest
Prospero Frobozz: Yeah
Rowan Masala nods
Prospero Frobozz: Our survival mechanisms run amuck way too often.
Threedee Shepherd: true, but the alternative was not to contribute to the gene pool, way back when :D
Prospero Frobozz has decided not to have kids, so he thinks that he should be exempt from gene pool considerations :)
stevenaia Michinaga is a generous donor

And back to clearing the mind…

Rowan Masala: Prospero, can you remember a time when you have been able to clear your mind more effectively, intentionally or unintentionally?
Prospero Frobozz: Hmm… I can remember when I was *worse* at it.
Prospero Frobozz: I don’t know if I remember a time ever being especially adroit with it.
Rowan Masala: what do you think contributes to the times it’s more difficult?
stevenaia Michinaga: then it may take you more time… but with patience, who knows
Prospero Frobozz: Rowan : I’m addicted to thinking, always want to be thinking about something. I like it. And, I often have things going. But… the unhealthy part is that I’m a worrier. Not so bad right now, but in the past I’ve been a compulsive worrier, and that’s what would take over my mind if I gave it the chance.
stevenaia Michinaga: I live for the quiet mind moments / worry free moments
Rowan Masala: I read something interesting yesterday, regarding neurolinguistic programming
Rowan Masala: that relates to the worry issue
Rowan Masala: the author argued that since we’re able to procrastinate about so many things
Rowan Masala: perhaps we should try to procrastinate worrying
Prospero Frobozz is a world-class procrastinator
Prospero Frobozz: And, yes, sometimes I procrastinate worrying too.
Rowan Masala: a sort of Scarlet O’Hara thing, I guess
Threedee Shepherd: haha
Prospero Frobozz: But that means if somebody reminds me of something I have to do, it makes it all the more stressful :)
Rowan Masala: but really, if the worry isn’t serving a purpose… why not take at least 9 seconds of time away from it
Threedee Shepherd: procrastination can often be productuve-delay. By the time you get around to it, it is no longer necessary :D
Rowan Masala: yes, 3D!
Prospero Frobozz: Threedee : I learned that lesson in spaces when I was a post-doc….
Prospero Frobozz: There was a particular task that when done before the absolute last minute meant that it had to be re-done repeatedly as long as there was time, to no significantly different result.
Prospero Frobozz: But… everybody else (who wasn’t doing it) wanted to quesiton the way it was done and suggest ways to redo it. I learned not to do it before the last minute so there wasn’t time to question….
Prospero Frobozz: s/spaces/spades/
Rowan Masala nods
Rowan Masala: chime
Rowan Masala: 9 seconds all
Rowan Masala: ok
Threedee Shepherd: <aside> although, Prospero, that may fit my rule that you can do in 3-hours almost perfectly on a computer, what you could have done more than adequately by hand in 30 minutes ;D
Prospero Frobozz: heh
Rowan Masala smiles
Rowan Masala: or the notion that the work of a task expands to fill the time alotted to it, and conversely contracts if little time is alotted at all
Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
Rowan Masala: did anyone have anything noteworthy in that 9second period?
stevenaia Michinaga: I was distracted (as usual)
Threedee Shepherd: a moment of detachment

Then Pia, after internet connection frustration, was able to join us…

Rowan Masala: Welcome, Pia
Threedee Shepherd: hi Pia
Rowan Masala: it’s good to see you
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Pia
Pia Iger: gosh, my wireless was not working. Just got home to use landline.
Pia Iger: how is going?
stevenaia Michinaga: thanks for joining us
Threedee Shepherd: “technology” never let a machine know you are in a hurry or have a real need :D
Rowan Masala: we’re having an interesting discussion about stress and worry
Pia Iger: Yes. 3D.
Pia Iger: Please continue
Rowan Masala: and I think Prospero is interested in learning methods to help him clear his mind during meditation
Rowan Masala: do you have suggestions, Pia?
Pia Iger: We all need that. In the last 30 min, I was clearly in frustration and not knowing how to keep cool.
Threedee Shepherd: Well, I experienced that it took regular and repeated 9-sec moments to get to the clearer point. sort of *grew* on me.
Rowan Masala: how regular, and for how long, 3D?
Threedee Shepherd: at least hourly, probably for a week or two
Rowan Masala nods
Rowan Masala: hourly, all day?
Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
Pia Iger: a few tricks I learned here for meditation, is to stay with your breath, observe your mind without judge
Pia Iger: so while I still feel frustration or stress, frequent 9-sec breaks prevent them from accumulation.
Rowan Masala nods
Pia Iger: every day there is still ups and downs, but they don’t impact me too deeply. in average, I am quite stable and contented.
stevenaia Michinaga: ..smile, a nice thing
Pia Iger: and meeting friends here definitely help. Once I saw you all sat here peacefully, I feel much better, relieved from my internet frustration.
Rowan Masala smiles
Rowan Masala: I’m sorry you were worried, Pia
Rowan Masala: chime
stevenaia Michinaga: Gong
Threedee Shepherd: Prospero, I observe that there is “something here” about PaB that *works* and does so in different ways for each of us.
Rowan Masala: I wonder if trying to filter out a few of the distractions at a time might help–perhaps to try to focus on input from just one sense, for that nine seconds
Prospero Frobozz: Once I close my eyes, most of the distractions for me usually tend to be auditory…. those are the things my brain latch on to
Prospero Frobozz: latches
Prospero Frobozz [doesn’t mean to imply with verb conjugation that he has multiple brains]
Rowan Masala: and what if you focused only on those, rather than viewing them as disctrations?
stevenaia Michinaga: hmmm, this last moment I get this shaking up activity inside then almost a stopping of time outside, like the click in Tomb Raider (for those of us who are Laura Croft (angelina Jolie) fans
stevenaia Michinaga: like the clock, rather
Prospero Frobozz: I was thinking click, must be something you do with the mouse in the game :)
Rowan Masala: I’ll be interested in hearing how your meditative attempts progress, Prospero
Rowan Masala: as I try the same
stevenaia Michinaga: some people do a blog of their moments
Threedee Shepherd: <total tangent of a neuroscientist> It’s interesting that vision is the only sense we can actively *close*
Rowan Masala: 3D and Pia seem to have good suggestions, and Steven is typically inherently serene
Rowan Masala: ah, well, 3D, I have the luxury of removing my hearing aids and having the world become much quieter, although not silent altogether
Prospero Frobozz: heh
Pia Iger: it helps if you don’t intent to de-latch, just observe, sit with either vision or audio distraction. then they will disperse somehow, or not bother you that much.
Pia Iger: the more you try to get rid of them, the more bothersome they become
Rowan Masala nods

Does speaking pause thought?

Prospero Frobozz: Kakrafoon
Threedee Shepherd: I guess that is what Zen means in suggesting trying by not-trying :D
Pia Iger: yes.
Threedee Shepherd: Kakrafoon ???
Prospero Frobozz: My brain makes random connections… I was thinking of the race in Hitch-hiker’s guide to the galaxy that had people constantly talking, because if they stopped talking, their brains started working, and that was bad because they were all telepathic.
Prospero Frobozz: Human brains seem to be afraid of being quiet, as it were, always looking for something to latch on to and think about.
Rowan Masala: hmm–I’d forgotten about them
Rowan Masala smiles
Prospero Frobozz is well-versed in the classics
Threedee Shepherd: A quote from a book I read long ago: “birds fly, horses gallop, rabbits burrow, people think”
Prospero Frobozz: heh
Prospero Frobozz: yes
Pia Iger: at least we can start from not latch on anything in 9-sec. That is doable start.
Rowan Masala: by that argument, maybe reciting something during the meditation would clear our minds
Rowan Masala: I guess that’s part of what mantras are about
Rowan Masala: and chanting
Threedee Shepherd: yes pia, it is important, I think, that it seems possible in the way 9-minutes does not.
Pia Iger: yes. i was introduced to a 9 min meditaion before, but I could not do it.

Fiona wandered through…

Rowan Masala: Hello Fiona
Rowan Masala: welcome
Pia Iger: 9-sec, I can. and it is already effective.
Fiona Teardrop: hello :)

And Pia suggested that we close for the night…

Pia Iger: (thinking maybe we should let Rowan get off her first shift earlier?)
Rowan Masala smiles
Rowan Masala: I didn’t want to cut off the discussion
Pia Iger: Normally our session is about a hour.
stevenaia Michinaga: nice session Rowan
Pia Iger: the longest one is 6 hours. God. never again
Threedee Shepherd: yes, Rowan, thanks :)
Rowan Masala: good gracious!
stevenaia Michinaga: wow Pia, one of yours?
Pia Iger: not me, I would not let it happen.
Prospero Frobozz: Yikes
stevenaia Michinaga: gong
Pia Iger: so is this a good place to stop?
Adelene Dawner: ‘night, guys
Rowan Masala: goodnight, Adelene
Rowan Masala: thank you all for being here

---

Avatars and beyond

The guardian for this session was Maxine Walden.  All the comments are hers.
I was sitting for a few minutes at the Pavilion and then was joined by Threedee in his lion avatar.  The entire conversation of nearly an hour was just between the two of us.
Feeling fond of this lion and curious about what it was like to ‘be’ a lion I began perhaps a bit too promptly to ask him these questions

Maxine Walden: threedee, my favorite lion! nice to see you
Threedee Shepherd: hi, how are you?
Maxine Walden: Im fine, and you?
Threedee Shepherd: excellent, thanks
Maxine Walden: how does the world look from a lion’s viewpoint?
Threedee Shepherd: hmmm
Threedee Shepherd: people are friendly, let me ponder a bit more….
Maxine Walden: sure, did not mean to put you on the spot, sorry
Maxine Walden: just so interesting all of our points of view
Maxine Walden: and how choice of AVs might influence that

While my question may have seemed abrupt it was not too far from an item of interest for Threedee

Threedee Shepherd: not at all. One thing I intended by this av is to see how the world looked, so that’s an excellent question
Maxine Walden: OK, not too far away from a topic of interest then
Threedee Shepherd: true :)
Threedee Shepherd: Well, I feel comfortable in familiar places. I still feel a bit *strange* if I go shopping for a gadget at some new place.
Maxine Walden: lol, can imagine
Maxine Walden: even SL folks unfamiliar might seem surprised

We then began to get into stereotypes, and fantasies

Threedee Shepherd: also, I sense that deep down many folks harbor stereotypes of a *LION* and I am not sure I want that
Maxine Walden: but pleasingly so I would imagine
Maxine Walden: ah, yes, we all probably do have fantasies about lions and other perhaps archtypal figures
Threedee Shepherd: In part that is why I chose this elder-looking color and keep the claws in :)
Maxine Walden: from my view we ‘see’ in those figures what we harbor inside ourselves, in this case ‘lionlike’ elements
Maxine Walden: so I might project my own ‘lion’ elements onto the screen of ‘lion’ that your AV presents
Threedee Shepherd: true
Maxine Walden: but as thoughts occur, what it feels like ‘inside’ the lion aspect would be interesting
Threedee Shepherd: We all by adulthood assign cultural baggage to any appearance. So, I assume that I/we also do so when we pick an Av.

While Threedee was speaking about his lion AV I had been also thinking about how my attitude about my own AV’s appearance has just recently been changing

Maxine Walden: I so agree! In my own case I have been in SL now about 6 mo and have retained this very young girls appearance, not out of full volition that this is how I wish to look, but just that until quite recently it has not been that big a deal re my appearance.
Maxine Walden: But as I come to value SL as a place where imagination can really take off in creative ways I am aware of wishing to appear differently, value the appearance of my AV more
Threedee Shepherd nods
Maxine Walden: interesting shift for me, actually
Threedee Shepherd: Do you plan to build an alternate appearance?
Maxine Walden: think I will start conservatively with different clothes and hair style, which may seem minimal to a lion
Threedee Shepherd: not at all, even to a lion
Maxine Walden: in terms of quality of difference
Threedee Shepherd: I do have a human male av and pick clothing
Maxine Walden: oh?
Maxine Walden: yes, I recall seeing your human AV
Threedee Shepherd: not like I have lots of clothing, but I do choose consciously
Threedee Shepherd: An interesting thing…
Threedee Shepherd: I am realizing as we chat that I have been more aware of how folks respond TO this lion, than I have been aware of experiencing the world FROM the standpoint of this lion. I will pay more attention to that in future.

With this last comment Threedee brought our attention to how we can feel so much concern for how others see us rather than how we view ourselves, a comment about aspects of Being

Maxine Walden: oh, that is very interesting the TO vs FROM, focus of attnetion was drawn to the TO
Maxine Walden: am so aware how in RL that focus can also abide: who do others view me rather than how it feels to be ‘me’
Maxine Walden: guess that is part of ‘being’
Threedee Shepherd: yes!
Threedee Shepherd: Also, I *feel* this Av is my *identity* here at PaB, and then feel a bit *out of place* when I appear here as my human Av.
Maxine Walden: oh, interesting, so you have come to feel more ‘you’ with this av at least currently
Maxine Walden: in PaB

Threedee mentions how our views of ourselves and how we wish to be seen by others changes with circumstances and roles

Threedee Shepherd: at PaB, certainly. When I do “business” with a potential client we might build for, I go human :)
Maxine Walden: (just pondering what we are talking about)
Maxine Walden: when doing ‘business’ you wish to give another impression
Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm

With a simple question I begin to learn a lot about Threedee and his sophistication re virtual reality and then some of his RL background as well.

Maxine Walden: you are a builder here in SL?
Threedee Shepherd: I am one of 4 partners (2 of us work in SL) in the compnay 3D Embodiment (3DE). We are SL providers, on a rather small scale, compared to the big companies like Electric Sheep. In RL we do immersive virtual-reality
Maxine Walden: sorry if that was an intrusive question
Threedee Shepherd: this is my “retirement” business
Maxine Walden: wow, can hardly get my mind around what you are describing, in terms of yor ‘retirement’ business. If I recall you also are a profession ro retired from that position/business?
Threedee Shepherd: nothing is intrusive :) I have a totally anonymous AV (not in PaB) for that mode
Maxine Walden: *professor
Threedee Shepherd: Professor, 36 years, University of Colorado. Biology/Neuroscience/VBisual System
Threedee Shepherd: Visual
Maxine Walden: oh, very interesting, biology/neuroscience/ biological visual systems?

As with colleagues and friends I also share some of my RL background

Maxine Walden: I am a psychiatrist/psychoanalyst for 35 plus years, teach at the Univ Washington, clinical faculty…we each seem to be in human ‘systems’
Threedee Shepherd: yes. I have a strong interest in psychotherapy from a brain-behavior point of view
Maxine Walden: but I am very new to this vitual reality which sounds very different from your experience
Maxine Walden: How psychotherapy changes the brain functioning?

Sharing some RL background in terms of interest in the mind, we begin to listen to each other, fine tune our different perspectives

Threedee Shepherd: yes, althyough changes is perhaps a more limited word than I would choose. Molds, is, becomes, words like that. Actually I like to say “being is becomming, and becomming is being”
Maxine Walden: While I think about it, how do you feel about the more personal data going into the log? I could edit it.
Maxine Walden: yes, agree with your finer distinction in description re ‘molding’ ; always a work in progress
Threedee Shepherd: It is OK with me. I have always shared this information with my students. I hope it opens them to broader perspectives
Maxine Walden: fine, yes I really feel that way as well

I then bring a question about mind vs brain which both Threedee and I have likely thought a lot about over time. We briefly mention our concerns about seeming to intellectual in our considerations.  And then Threedee’s several points on the matter of mind an brain are expressed with clarity, simplicity and humility

Maxine Walden: Interesting discussions in academia and elsewhere: mind vs brain. Do you have a position on that?
Threedee Shepherd: In general, the main reason I do not bring it up in a group, as opposed to bring it up in response, is that I do not want to sound pompous
Maxine Walden: Know what you mean, actually I have wondered that about how I come across sometimes as I have always moreless tried to be clear/precise/thoughtful in what I say…and apparently that can be daunting/offering to some
Maxine Walden: *off-putting
Threedee Shepherd: truth is truth when it is offered, not imposed :)
Maxine Walden: and whether it is offered or imposed can be as much in the experience of the receiver as the sender, but it is something I always try to keep in mind
Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm, re mind-brain I have a bit to say
Maxine Walden: please, I would love to hear
Threedee Shepherd: first I use the term brain-body, as in embodiment, to clariofy that we are a total organism that meets the world (and invents the world to some extent)
Threedee Shepherd: Then, I say the brain-body is the organ of the mind, without defining mind beyond the usual colloquial sense of the word.
Threedee Shepherd: Then I loosely equate mind with consciousness.
Threedee Shepherd: Finally, after *lots* of reading and thought and teaching about it, I conclude I do not know and perhaps/probably cannot know what consciousness if, other than to say it is NOT super-natural.
Maxine Walden: I like that, brain-body as the organ of the mind; agree to some extent with mind/consciousness equation
Threedee Shepherd: *consciousness IS not if

I offer some added thoughts which come from my interests and experience

Maxine Walden: I find it useful to factor into the ‘mind’ not only consciousness but the realms of the unconscious, which for me are very meaningfully that 90% of the iceberg below awareness
Maxine Walden: Aware not everyone finds that notion useful but it has been and is for me
Threedee Shepherd: Oh, I purposely left that out, and agree totally that probably less than 1% reaches perception consciousness.

Threedee brings in the aspect of experience

Threedee Shepherd: The reason I left it out is that consciousness is something I subjectively experience (and thus cannot hellp but try to explain/understand) whereas pre-conscious is not part of my active experience, only its results are
Maxine Walden: the impact of unconscious expeirnece/forces on our conscious experience is awesome and something to continue to grab my interest
Threedee Shepherd: so I haveno problem extending the idea of *mind* as you propose, and cannot *expaliun* that, either :)
Threedee Shepherd: explain
Maxine Walden: yes, as if a non-communicating universe between unconscious and conscious minds

As I re-read the log I wondered if I had mis-stated in suggesting a non-communicating universe between conscious and unconscious minds, but that term I feel does relate to the ‘experiencing’ self which can only sense the realm of the conscious, even though the unconscious affects emotional, atmospheric and certain fantasy elements
And sadly I had to keep in time the very concrete element of time

Maxine Walden: (have to keep in mind amidst this wonderful conversation that I should leave about 5 min before the hour to take the chatlog before a 2pm meeting elsewhere; just to forwarn)
Threedee Shepherd: We have reasons for acting, I do not dispute that. We have no particular introspective access to those reasons, I suggest.
Threedee Shepherd: k

And then in bringing in the dream introduces spme tought about creativity and even genius which I found very interesting to ponder

Maxine Walden: perhaps the dream can be an introspective access, at least I find that possible sometimes
Maxine Walden: the remembered dream, of course
Maxine Walden: the dream as messenger from the unconscious regions
Threedee Shepherd: I once *fully* thought so about dreams. Recently I have been playinjg with the notion that dreams try our almost random conjunctions to *see* if they make sense, too.
Maxine Walden: interesting…can you say more?
Threedee Shepherd: try out, sure
Threedee Shepherd: creativity, at least from one point of view, is *rubbing together* two ideas that may not at first seem related, and recognizing something new as a result. as an aside genius is going further afield for said ideas to rub. So, perhaps PART of dreaming is to allow such conjunctions to happen in *fantastic*, uninhibited ways, to observe what happens?
Threedee Shepherd: <aside> we need to point oout for the log that we are the only two people at this session

Likely Threedee had in mind as well the coming end of the session and the log in his comment about mentioning there were only the two of us in this conversation.  The entwined strands of logging that and this fascinating aspect of the dream demonstrate the multi-leveled strands that often occur in these discussions

Maxine Walden: oh, very very nice thought, some things I would like to ponder. Really like those thoughts about creativity and genius
Maxine Walden: yes, the aside, why, that we could talk as we have been? more academic perhaps?
Threedee Shepherd: no, to “explain” the absence of other voices :)
Maxine Walden: And I should go in a moment or two…oh, yes, will do that. Make it obvious just us two
Maxine Walden: Well should go. Great talking and hope to continue as possible. Have really enjoyed it

We both realized how interesting this discussion had been, how much we shared and could enrich each other.  In the midst of this and the wish to continue I went completely clueless about how to offer ‘friendship’ in SLin order to be able to more easily continue the conversation.  Threedee does so and the conversation comes to an end

Threedee Shepherd: I would love to continue our discussion anon. I’ll look for you when I’m logged in.
Maxine Walden: please do, I would also love to continue and I will look for you as well.
Threedee Shepherd: :) bye for now
Maxine Walden: remind my, how o I offer friendship?
Maxine Walden: so I can ‘find you’
Maxine Walden: great done
Maxine Walden: bye for now

---

A Very Friendly Group

This morning, at 8 am SLT, we had another weekly Guardian meeting in the Hall of Appearance. I (Pema) am including the chatlog without further comments. I came in a bit late, since after an initial crash it took me a bit to get back in.

Storm Nordwind: wb Pema
Pema Pera: sorry, very unstable internet connection it seems . . . ..
Rowan Masala: hi Pema
Pema Pera: Hi everybody
Solobill Laville: :)
Rowan Masala: Hi Fael
Neela Blaisdale: Hi Pema
Fael Illyar: Hi Everyone
Neela Blaisdale: And Raj and Fael
Pema Pera: better to have somebody else lead the meeting — I may disappear any moment again
Solobill Laville: :)
Pema Pera: Storm, could you moderate?
Pema Pera: Pia will start off
Storm Nordwind: If you disappear, yes!
Moon Fargis: greetings everyone
Fael Illyar: Hi Moon :)
Pia Iger: Hi, Moon,
Rowan Masala: hi Moon
Pia Iger: so cute
Neela Blaisdale: Hi GAya and Moon. Or little Moon
Moon Fargis: yes
Storm Nordwind: Half-Moon
Moon Fargis: hehe
Caledonia Heron: hi Everyone :)
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Fael Illyar: Hi Cal :)
Caledonia Heron: Let me introduce Prospero Frobozz :)
Neela Blaisdale: Hi CAl and Prosper
Fael Illyar: Hi Prospero
genesis Zhangsun: Welcome!
Moon Fargis: hi gaya.. long time not… talked :)
Prospero Frobozz: Hello, all!
Solobill Laville: Hey, Prospero
Caledonia Heron: Prospero is getting to know our group :)
Pia Iger: Hi, there
Caledonia Heron: make yourself comfy Pros… a very friendly group :)
Pema Pera: Welcome, Prospero!
Pema Pera: You’ve met some of us during a previous PaB session
Pema Pera: but now you can a sampling of about half the guardians all at once
Prospero Frobozz: The trick is going to be remembering who I’ve already met :) Meeting lots of people in a few days…/
Faenik loves wells!
Pema Pera: Pia, would you like to start off, reporting about the excerpt project, that you have been coordinating with so much success, during the last ten days?
Fael Illyar: Reminds me of when I was first here :)
Pema Pera: :)
Pia Iger: sure.
Pia Iger: I am glad to say the first phase of excerpt project is finished now
Pia Iger: we have 30 short excerpt, 20 long ones on wiki
Rowan Masala: you did a really nice job with them, Pia
Pia Iger: with diverse themes.
Pia Iger: Readers can get an idea of 9-sec, PaB by those excerpts
Caledonia Heron: I notice there’s 2 ways the short excerpts are documented – are we ok with that?
Pia Iger: two ways?
Caledonia Heron: the short ones started in 4 categories, with numbered entries within a topic … now entries are being logged singly with their own titles … both ok? preferred format please?
Pia Iger: some short ones were grouped together, since they serve to the same theme.
Pia Iger: like -The Ways the 9-sec Practice Has Changed Us (
Pia Iger: some short one can’t , they stand by themself. like -A historic moment
Caledonia Heron: yes, correct … are we not staying within the topics … are we free to put things in any old category … not sure that helps people get to the core of information which was the point I had thought…. if incorrect please inform me :)
Caledonia Heron: it’s just a redistribution of the logs into readers digest format at that point imo
Pia Iger: that depents on the content nature of your excerpt.
Caledonia Heron: ok, understood, anything goes
Caledonia Heron: any more housekeeping?
Faenik: why not?
Pia Iger: before we change to next issue, I want to thank guardians who have gave big helps.
Pia Iger: Maxine, Cal and Solo were very sweft to give contribution.
Caledonia Heron: WooT
Pia Iger: Adams, Fael, and Pema gave good hints of notable log.
Pia Iger: Neela was very helpful to do the extracting of long logs.
Pia Iger: Syl help to keep wiki organization, and import old session of april, may, June from word blog.
Caledonia Heron: yeah, we didn’t keep the logs from the very first sessions so it’s sketchy
Pia Iger: And Gaa!
Pia Iger: Gaya!
Gaya Ethaniel gets startled
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes?
Faenik: could be
Pia Iger: I mean I forgot meantion Gaya, who did many excerpts by herself
Pema Pera: Thank you very much Pia, and everybody who has helped out! It is really terrific that you together as a group got so much done in just ten days!!
Storm Nordwind: hear hear!
Gaya Ethaniel: Pleasure. A small thing I could do in return to the kindness all of you have shown me
Pema Pera: This will be a great resource, especially for new visitors to PaB
Solobill Laville claps
Pema Pera: Actually, Prospero will be the ideal guinea pig — perhaps you can give us some feedback in a week, or whenever, Prospero, whether these excerpts are interesting and understandable for someone coming in cold
Prospero Frobozz: Sure
Pema Pera: Now the question is: what is the next step
Prospero Frobozz: (I’ll need an URL, of course :) )
Fael Illyar: http://playasbeing.wik.is/
Solobill Laville: http://playasbeing.wik.is/PaB_SESSIONS_EXCERPTS
Pema Pera: Having this great start, as long as Pia is willing to continue coordinate the excerpt process, I suggest we ask her to do so
Faenik: ah :)
Storm Nordwind: seconded
Pia Iger: I have a suggestion
Caledonia Heron: agreed, please Pia?
Fael Illyar: Yes, please continue your great work, everyone who has contributed (and others too if you find the time) :)
Maxine Walden: you have done sucha good job, it would be great if you could conintue
Pia Iger: how help to give us a hint by add tag “notable”
Pia Iger: if you made a log that you think it is notable?
Pia Iger: so it gives me a clue to
Pia Iger: look into that log.
Pia Iger: *how about
Gaya Ethaniel nods ‘a great idea’
Pia Iger: Just type “notable” in tag
Pia Iger: Can everyone do that?
Caledonia Heron: sure :)
Adams Rubble: yes
Storm Nordwind: Can you remove that tag once you’ve seen it, or if your own opinion differs? :)
Fael Illyar: Is there a reason to remove the tag?
Caledonia Heron: we might have to accept that this is pretty subjective :)
Gaya Ethaniel: The process itself has been already subjective as I added logs from ‘my’ notes
Gaya Ethaniel: added excerpts*
Storm Nordwind: Can we add that tag to past logs or just to future ones as they occur?
Neela Blaisdale: One question-It seems to require logging into the google group to view the short exerpts? And is there a way to also have access to them on the wiki page so newcomers can view them before they join the google group?
Caledonia Heron: absolutely Gaya, another flavour it would seem
Gaya Ethaniel: Thou Cal, once I’ve looked through my notes, I agreed with Pia that I will look through all recent logs
Fael Illyar: google group shouldn’t have anything to do with the wiki?
Caledonia Heron: correct Fael
Pia Iger: Neela, you can go directly to wiki page.
Pia Iger: http://playasbeing.wik.is/PaB_SESSIONS_EXCERPTS
Caledonia Heron: [meeting meta-note … a 1/2 hours to go … move on?]
Caledonia Heron: *hour
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Pema Pera: Well, there are no other specific agenda points, Cal
Pia Iger: so we all agree with adding “notable” into future log. Then I am done.
Neela Blaisdale: Sorry must have beeb looking at an older version of the first wiki page
Pema Pera: so we can either continue or change topic, as we like
Rowan Masala: may I ask for some guidance?
Rowan Masala: for beginning being a guardian at the sessions?
Pema Pera: the best guidance may be to talk to one or more experienced guardians
Pia Iger: I will be there for today’s 7pm session and help you, Rowan
Pema Pera: but in addition, we may want to write down some guidelines
Pema Pera: If someone would like to volunteer for drafting guardian guidelines, or perhaps two people together, we can then discuss those on our email list
Faenik: why not?
Rowan Masala: but, this is a group of experienced guardians, isn’t it? or did you mean I should talk to each one on one
Pema Pera: any volunteers for guardian guide lines? Not you, Faenik, sorry
Moon Fargis: hehe
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Pema Pera: not each one, Rowan,
Pema Pera: just one or two
Pema Pera: or so
Solobill Laville: I think last week’s guardian meeting log would perhaps be helpful too…
genesis Zhangsun: I have a set of guardian guidelines drafted for the new website
genesis Zhangsun: but it is maybe more “legal”
genesis Zhangsun: so I would be happy to collaborate with someone on a more comprehensive guideline list
Pia Iger: It’s better not sound like “legal terms”
Adams Rubble: I would be willing to work with Gen
Pema Pera: hear hear!
genesis Zhangsun: sure I agree
Pema Pera: thank you both, Adams and Gen!
Gaya Ethaniel thanks Adams and gen
genesis Zhangsun: but it has some non “legal” portions too
Pema Pera: :)
Adams Rubble: Good to hear the voices from the pit :)
genesis Zhangsun: Thanks Adams!
Pema Pera: Are there other general questions, suggestions, ideas?
Moon Fargis: hmm yes
Gaya Ethaniel: wb
Pema Pera: yes?
Pema Pera: Moon?
Faenik loves wells!
Solobill Laville crashed…
Moon Fargis: theres a idea in my mind…for a longer time… i traveled around Sl and there are spreaded textst about buddhism and other stuff but no real library with important texts and other stuff
Pema Pera: !
Pema Pera: good point
Pema Pera: a PaB library would be great
Gaya Ethaniel smiles ‘another great idea’
Pema Pera: having excerpts from many traditions that resonate with what we’re trying to explore
Moon Fargis: so i thought about the idea to create a big library with texts about buddism, sutras, also pab and all kind of exerpts
Moon Fargis: yes
Pema Pera: Well, Moon, do you volunteer?
Rowan Masala: that would be great, Moon
Moon Fargis: sure
Pema Pera: anyone wants to help moon?
Gaya Ethaniel raises her hand
Moon Fargis: ^_^
Pema Pera: if nothing else as a sounding board?
Pema Pera: or collaborator
Pema Pera: depending on time available?
Rowan Masala: I would like to help
Storm Nordwind: We could house it here perhaps
Rowan Masala: as time allows
Gaya Ethaniel helped builing a Korean library in a museum before…
Pema Pera: So Moon and Gaya and Rowan?
Rowan Masala nods
Pema Pera: great, thank you all very much!
Pema Pera: yes, this would be a good place
Pema Pera: at least for now
Pema Pera: Wow, so many initatives in one day !!!
genesis Zhangsun: Fantastic!!
Solobill Laville: I’m having issues, here, so I missed most of that convo, but I am working on setting up a consortium of SL Buddhist sims
Maxine Walden: yes, wonderful
Solobill Laville: If that helps toward this last initiave let me know
Gaya Ethaniel: ah
Neela Blaisdale: Moon had you seen this site I just sent you before?
genesis Zhangsun: what sort of consortium Solo?
Moon Fargis: neela: uhm what site ?
Solobill Laville: I’ll send you a notecard Gen
Solobill Laville: Just a loose knit group (meta level) to share information on purpose, events, activities, etc.
Neela Blaisdale: Open Buddhist Dharma Library
Solobill Laville: ty Neela
Moon Fargis: neela: ahh the landmark
Moon Fargis: neela: hmm maybe i have to revisit it i think
Gaya Ethaniel: ty Neela
Maxine Walden: Thanks Neela
Faenik: could be
Neela Blaisdale gave you Open Buddhist Dharma Library, Momil (14, 43, 68).
Pema Pera: it is important though that we do not make the library half Buddhist or more — it should be a sampling from different traditions, and not only religions either
Pema Pera: also humanist, secular
Rowan Masala nods
Storm Nordwind nods
Maxine Walden: that feels so important, Pema,
Pema Pera: some science writing inspirations
Rowan Masala: it would be nice to have a favorite quotation related to Being from each of the guardians
Neela Blaisdale: Goodbye all have to leave
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Rowan Masala: as a starting point
Rowan Masala: bye Neela
Maxine Walden: yes explorations of reality cover so many paths
Pema Pera: bye Neela
Gaya Ethaniel: Perhaps I could focus on Hinduism
Solobill Laville: bye neela
Pema Pera: we can include quotes from artists, say, too
Pia Iger: quotes, poems, arts.
genesis Zhangsun: bye Neela!
Pema Pera: yes
Moon Fargis: hmm i think we need to focus on alot of tradition so we will do some focusmap
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Pema Pera: well, let’s just get started, and next week Moon & the moonlets can report!
Pia Iger: (before we go, Pia itchy for the duet of Moon and Fael, they both dressed nicely. And we have a guest here, and a new guardian.)
Rowan Masala smiles
Fael Illyar: moonlets :)
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Pema Pera: hear hear
Maxine Walden: great
Moon Fargis: ^_^
Pema Pera: Fael and Moon, are you ready?
Fael Illyar: Hehe, ok, lets do it then :)
Storm Nordwind: please :)
Moon Fargis: ohh one second
Pema Pera: classic tunes from PaB
Moon Fargis: ok :)
Moon Fargis: im ready
Fael Illyar: ok
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Pema Pera: clap clap clap!
Moon Fargis: *smiles*
Prospero Frobozz is impressed as to how well the motion and sounds timed together… getting sounds to come out timed right is hugely challenging in SL, with with each viewer hearing the sounds at a different time.
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
Fael Illyar: it’s mostly scripted.
Prospero Frobozz: Even with scripts, it’s a challenge :)
Pema Pera: btw, Prospero is also Prospero Linden, a professional astronomer turned professional Linden, so his praise counts highly :-)
Moon Fargis: and tested babout hours for the riht timing :)
Prospero Frobozz: I scripted up a clock that chimes on the hour, and it doesn’t always give the right number of bongs….
Prospero Frobozz: Bongs as in the sound a bell makes, not as in something else
Pema Pera: :)
Caledonia Heron: :)
genesis Zhangsun: Wonderful!
Moon Fargis: ^_^
Fael Illyar: Well, it did take some tweaking to get the timing working but it wasn’t that heard, really :)
Fael Illyar: umm, hard
Pema Pera: We are reaching the end of our hour; perhaps we can close here, or is there any last minute idea or question?
Pema Pera: if not, thank you all — it is so great to see so much synergy and initiative!
Moon Fargis: ^:^
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Pema Pera: =^+^=
genesis Zhangsun: Bye everyone!
Maxine Walden: yes, so interesting to see how this is all developing
Pema Pera: bye gen!
Pia Iger: see you all next time. and I welcome any feedback of excerpt pages.
Moon Fargis: see you soon :)
Pia Iger: thanks Storm to correct one title.
Solobill Laville: Bye, Pia
Pema Pera: see you all soon again, bye for now!
Fael Illyar: See you all later :)
Prospero Frobozz: Thanks for letting me evesdrop! And I’ll take a look at the excerpts URL to see if I can make heads or tails of what all this is :)
Adams Rubble: Bye everyone and thank you Storm for the cushion :)
Storm Nordwind: You’re doing a great job Pia. Thanks for all the hard work
Pema Pera: Thanks, Pros!

---

Busy and Missing

Adams Rubble was the guardian but was unable to get to Rieul because of a technical glitch. Fael Illyar kindly sent me the log and I am posting it. I could see the pavilion on the map and noticed that there were two avatars there. They were Fael and Rajah.

Fael Illyar: Hi Rajah :)
Rajah Yalin: hi Fael :)
Fael Illyar: Been busy?
Rajah Yalin: yeah some
Faenik: could be
Rajah Yalin: RL
Fael Illyar: It sometimes gets busy, yes :)
Rajah Yalin: lately especially
Fael Illyar: Yes, I’ve been sort of leisurely busy as well :)
Fael Illyar: hard to describe, really :)
Rajah Yalin: true
Fael Illyar: being busy without being busy :)
Rajah Yalin: or just busy at nothing
Fael Illyar: Yes, that works too :)
Fael Illyar: I’ve been much less to PaBs the last 3 weeks.
Fael Illyar: well, kind of feels like years ago though :)
Rajah Yalin: same here sadly :/
Faenik: なるほど^^
Fael Illyar: Although, feeling years ago is not because it was uncomfortable time. Quite the opposite.
Fael Illyar: well, not without it’s ebbs and flows but I’ve been going by my intuition mostly :)
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.

Gaya Arrives and I later saw the three dots on the map.

Fael Illyar: Hi Gaya :)
Faenik: なるほど^^
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Fael Illyar: Oh, new hair and clothes :)
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Gaya Ethaniel zooms on Fael ‘new clothes’
Fael Illyar: old clothes but … it’s been some time sinceI last used these :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Lovely colour <smile>
Faenik: なるほど^^
Fael Illyar: what you’re wearing is nice too :)
Fael Illyar: well, lovely :)
Gaya Ethaniel: ty <smile>

---