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Nature or Nurture?

Pia Iger as guardian and prepared this log.

First, meet RL sister and brother — Adelene and Valgaav.
Adelene Dawner: Hi, Pia
Pia Iger: Hi, Adelene,
Adelene Dawner: Valgaav is my RL brother.
Adelene Dawner: Hi Adams :)
Pia Iger: Ooh, welcome, please join us.
Valgaav Gartle: just sit anywhere?
Adelene Dawner: yup
Adams Rubble: Hello Adelene :)
Adams Rubble: Hello Pia :)
Valgaav Gartle: /sit
Valgaav Gartle: huh.
Pia Iger: Hi, Adams:)
Adams Rubble: Hello Valgaav, nice to meet you :)
Valgaav Gartle: Okay, neither Gestures nor right-=clicking myself has sit.
Adelene Dawner: right click the cushion
Valgaav Gartle: That could do. derp.
Adelene Dawner: heh ^.^
Valgaav Gartle: anyroad, pretty much just here for this; Adelene suggested I attend.
Adelene Dawner: Val, just so you’re fully aware, we do record these meetings – I assume you’re okay with that, if not, we can anonimize your name.
Valgaav Gartle: If I can get in trouble at a meeting of people I’ve never met before at a place I’m only visiting once and have it affect me elsewhere…
Valgaav Gartle: Well, I deserve the trouble.
Adelene Dawner laughs. “It’s a TOS thing. We have to tell you.”
Valgaav Gartle: oh. Can’t argue with that, really.
Adams Rubble: No secrets here :)
Adams Rubble: Are there different bird sounds here or is it me?
Valgaav Gartle: I assumed the different sorts of birds’ songs was a common thing.
Adelene Dawner: If you’re only going to come once, though, maybe you should wait ’till Stim or Pema are here.
Adelene Dawner: We have a new flock of crows, Adams. And you’re very perceptive. ^.^
Pia Iger: I hear the difference, too.
Valgaav Gartle: I never said once, I said that this was the only thing I was here for.
Adelene Dawner: [19:05] Valgaav Gartle: If I can get in trouble at a meeting of people I’ve never met before at a place I’m only visiting once and have it affect me elsewhere…
Adelene Dawner: but, no worries ^.^
Valgaav Gartle: Aaah, my own statements. My ancient nemesis.
Pia Iger: (just curious, is Adelene the big sister?)
Adelene Dawner laughs. “indeed”
Adelene Dawner: Yep, 4 years’ difference.
Pia Iger: ok.
Valgaav Gartle: and I’m still more mature than her. :P
Adams Rubble: :)
Pia Iger: haha
Adelene Dawner: :PPia Iger ^.^
Adelene Dawner: ‘grumpy’ and ‘mature’ aren’t the same thing, brat. ^.^
Valgaav Gartle: Which is why I’m more mature, hrm?
Adelene Dawner just chuckles.
Adelene Dawner: Anyway.
Adelene Dawner: Adams was here for the last religion thread – part of it anyway – and I don’t remember what we were talking about last time I saw Pia.
Pia Iger: me, neither:)
Pia Iger: any topic is fine with me.
Valgaav Gartle stage-whispers. “There was a time when she thought grumpiness and maturity were the same thing.”
Valgaav Gartle: anyway, topics!
Adelene Dawner swats Val.
Adelene Dawner: http://angelshelper81.livejournal.com/ ?
Adams Rubble thinks Adelene has long arms :)
Valgaav Gartle: you’d be surprised where she’s swatted me from.
Adams Rubble: :)
Adelene Dawner: Three is having login problems and will be here when SL cooperates with that plan. I just got an email.
stevenaia Michinaga is Offline
stevenaia Michinaga is Online
SL was not stable, with apparently Threedee and Stevenaia having difficulty to login. Then, Val disappeared for a second.
Pia Iger: Adams, is there anything you want to start?
Adelene Dawner: Val seems to have frozen, he says via IM. Also, *ding*
Adams Rubble: I wont be here that long and probably shoudln;t start a thread. I was just reading Adelene’s blog
stevenaia Michinaga is Offline
Adams Rubble: That’s an interesting question you end with Adelene :)
Adelene Dawner nods.
Adams Rubble: I guess we find what works for us
Adelene Dawner: “Why do I…” questions often lead to the answer to “Why does everyone else…” which is useful.
Adelene Dawner: That happened earlier, actually…
Adelene Dawner: [14:37] Adelene Dawner: My realization, earlier, if anyone’s interested, is that that’s probably why I get overloaded – for you guys, it seems like you can just set your brains to ‘record’ and go over the data sometime that’s less pressured. I can’t, so I wind up trying to do too much at once. [14:37] Corvuscorva Nightfire nods. [14:37] Wol Euler: an apt image. [14:37] Wol Euler: put it on the “deal with that later” stack. [14:38] Adelene Dawner: Which *also* explains, perhaps, why your thoughts are so focused on other times. You always have a ‘deal with that later’ stack to go through. [14:38] Wol Euler: ha! [14:38] Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think that is absolutely the truth of that.. [14:38] Wol Euler: yes, indeed. [14:38] Adelene Dawner bows. “Glad to help.” ^.^
Adams Rubble: :)
Adams Rubble: wb Valgaav
Valgaav Gartle: anyway, we were saying?
Adelene narrowed down a topic.
Adelene Dawner: So…
Adelene Dawner: Why do most people buy into that ‘intrinsically evil’ idea?
Valgaav Gartle: You want an honest answer?
Adams Rubble: I don;t think MOST people do
Adams Rubble: Yes Val
Valgaav Gartle: Everyone thinks they’re evil because what we’ve called evil is easy.
Valgaav Gartle: This is what I mentioned would be my explanation of sin earlier: Everything, taken to an extreme, is evil.
Adams Rubble: Sin does;t necessarily mean evil
Valgaav Gartle: Almost all the times when you see someone doing ‘evil’ with ‘good’, they’ve taken it to an extreme.
Valgaav Gartle: No, it doesn’t, but the two are very closely linked.
Valgaav Gartle: Sins are actions, to me, that can be easily carried to an evil extreme.
Adelene Dawner wanders off to go find a craft to do while she watches the fun. ^.^
Valgaav Gartle: hence the Seven Deadlies. They’re things that’re very easy to overdo.
stevenaia Michinaga is Online
Valgaav Gartle: Things that’re innately enjoyable. And their opposites are the things that are hard to do.
Adams Rubble: Well in Christian terms, we are all sinners but Christ is there to forgive
Adelene Dawner wanders back, decoupage supplies in hand.
Adams Rubble: People can do a great deal of good but slip up, sometimes even with a small thought
Valgaav Gartle: That’s because indulging at all is considered a sin. Not indulging is a sin in and of itself, to me.
Threedee and Stevenaia finally got in.
Adams Rubble: Hello Threedee :)
Threedee Shepherd: hi, computer problems :(
Valgaav Gartle: Just my opinion, of course. You have to do some sins…hey, Aslan. cool. …anyway, have to do some sins to
Valgaav Gartle: gah.
Valgaav Gartle: to NOT be a sinner.
Pia Iger: Hi, Threedee and Steve,
Adams Rubble: Hello Steve :)
stevenaia Michinaga: hello
Threedee Shepherd: Had to fire up a different computer ugh
Adelene Dawner: ik
Valgaav Gartle: hey, this computer doesn’t even meet the minimum specs for SecondLife.
Threedee Shepherd: hi Val
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, I couldn;t transport here
Valgaav Gartle: anyway, does that make sense? Why some things are viewed as sins, and why some things are innately virtuous? Putting pressure to minimize extremes?
Valgaav was not used to our silence yet.
Valgaav Gartle: …the crickets just make this silence more awkward. >_>
Adelene Dawner laughs. “It’s not you, we’re like that here.”
Valgaav Gartle: oh good.
stevenaia Michinaga: sin, did I miss the part about what sin is?
Valgaav Gartle: probably. want me to go back over my definition?
Threedee Shepherd: Sorry I am coming in at the middle. Why is anything a “sin”? That appears to depend on some particular religious point of view.
Valgaav Gartle: To me, I view sin as anything taken to a hurtful extreme.
stevenaia Michinaga: one religious sin could be another’s virtue
Threedee Shepherd: hurtful to who?
Valgaav Gartle: Heinlein has a good one on this, though I try not to steal from him too much: “Sin is any action that hurts others unnecessarily. Hurting yourself isn’t a sin, just stupid”
stevenaia Michinaga: worshiping multiple deities?
Adams Rubble: Goodnight everyone :)
stevenaia Michinaga: night Adams
Adams left for the night.
Adelene Dawner laughs at Valgaav’s definition. “I like that one. Fits *nicely* with nondualism.”
Threedee Shepherd: What is hurt? An injection can hurt.
Valgaav Gartle: But it’s also necessary.
Valgaav Gartle: Or at least more necessary than not, for not hurting people.
stevenaia Michinaga: masturbation is a sin to some.. go figure
Valgaav Gartle: Of course, this too can be taken to an extreme. See the classic ‘robots enslave humanity to make sure they don’t hurt each other’ plot. Was Asimov the first one to do that, by the way?
stevenaia Michinaga: that;s harm, not sin
stevenaia Michinaga: or non harm
Valgaav Gartle: precisely why my definition isn’t the Heinlein one, but rather one modified from other sources.
Valgaav Gartle: “Sin is anything taken to an extreme”
Valgaav Gartle: or, same idea different parsing: “Anything taken to an extreme is sinful”
stevenaia Michinaga: bliss? love?
Threedee Shepherd: Val, Buddhism does not talk about sin, instead it talks about “right living”
Valgaav Gartle: Yes, but when’d Buddhism enter into my personal definition, except for something to steal from?
Valgaav Gartle: also, yes. bliss, to the point where you want nothing other than it. Love, to the point where you hurt yourself or others for it.
stevenaia Michinaga: as in “love hurts…yeah yeah”
Valgaav Gartle: If you must song-quote, sure.
Valgaav Gartle: but love isn’t innately more or less harmful than other things at the same extreme.
Threedee Shepherd: I am only making the point that it is not necessary to have a concept called “sin” to point to
Valgaav Gartle: anyone mind if I move my seat? And no, but it’s a very good one to have to start from.
Threedee Shepherd: ways of living
Adelene Dawner: Nobody will mind, Val. We’re very free form here.
I wanted to fill in Threedee and Steve what the original question was.
Pia Iger: the original question from Adelene was : Why do most people buy into that Christian’s ‘human nature are intrinsically sinful’ idea?
Valgaav Gartle: Cool. Threedee is on the other side of the table. and that’s because they see the ‘sin’ in themselves, even if they don’t express it.
Valgaav Gartle: much better. anyway, I do apologize if I come across as heavy handed; I’ve had a lot of practice defending these ideas from those that don’t like them.
stevenaia Michinaga: :) views here are what we learn from
stevenaia Michinaga: no apologies necessary
Valgaav Gartle: I’m not used to that. I need to soften myself. anyway, that’s my opinion; everyone sees the lust, and greed and such in themselves and even if they don’t express it, they think ‘this is sin’ and ‘this is me’.
Valgaav Gartle: therefore, ‘sin’ is ‘me’.
Adelene Dawner: where does the idea that those are sin come from in the first place, then?
stevenaia Michinaga: recognizing these things is the way to See them and move way from where you don;t want to be, if these “Sins” are something to avoid or not repeat
Valgaav Gartle: I’ve already voiced my opinions on that.
stevenaia Michinaga: but sin is a strange term in any case
Valgaav Gartle: were you here for that, Steve? I forget.
stevenaia Michinaga: I;ll read it in the wiki
Valgaav Gartle: Another thing about Sin, then, is that it’s defined externally. No-one wakes up one morning and thinks ‘I am sinful’.
stevenaia Michinaga: so it;s applied by others?
Valgaav Gartle: Or at least given by them.
Adelene introduced to Val our meditation chime.
Adelene Dawner: ding
Valgaav Gartle: what IS that, anyway?
stevenaia Michinaga: sin is a term that never enters my thoughts in terms of my actions or inactions
Threedee Shepherd: Humans can and do behave “badly”. Badly can mean hurtful to others, destructive of property, disruptive of society. Some religions try to maintain control and social order by defining some of these behaviors as sinful.
Adelene Dawner: meditation chime, Val. One of our few set practices here is to do a 9-second mini-meditation every 15 minutes during this hour.
Valgaav Gartle: huh. weird idea. anyway, again, nobody thinks they’re sinful. No-one, to steal from elsewhere again, ever believes themselves a villain.
Valgaav Gartle: However, certain things being given as sins indicate that, on some level, you will shy away from them.
Threedee Shepherd: Adelene, to go back to your original question. As I understand it, some Christians think we are all originally sinful because that then requires that you seek salvation through Jesus Christ. The original sin caused expulsion from the Garden of Eden, I think.
Pia Iger: Sin is a religious tool. if there is no sin, why need savior?
stevenaia Michinaga: and yes, most western religions allow for a periodic cleansing of sins, spoken or not
stevenaia Michinaga: a religious washing machine of sorts
Fine tune the question.
Adelene Dawner: Yes, I get what’s in it for the religion – it’s profitable to teach that, whether it’s believed to be true or not. My question is, why do so many people go along with the idea?
Valgaav Gartle: “Give me a child until he is fourteen, and he is mine for life”
Threedee Shepherd: People CRAVE security. Religion offers a form of security through god.
Adelene Dawner: hm.
Adelene Dawner: That might be on the right track to explaining why I didn’t buy into it.
Adelene Dawner: Although
Adelene Dawner: I did kind-of buy into the trappings of Christianity. Just not the ‘sinner’ part. So that’s not really it.
stevenaia Michinaga: I don;t have a problem with the ones that go along with it, my problem is when those who believe they are without sin, or who label you as a sinner because you do not “believe” is a problem for me
Adelene Dawner: Agreed, Steve, though that’s a separate issue. (And we’ve already had a discussion about the practicalities of that kind of situation, which should be up on the blog soon.)
stevenaia Michinaga: ask any witch in Salem
Valgaav Gartle: Those sorts irk me, though as with all such things I simply find a way to make fun of it…and maybe three people were actually burned in Salem, according to actual records.
Threedee Shepherd: Even one, is two to mant :)
Valgaav Gartle: I hope you realize the contradiction in that statement. we’re supposed to MAKE lives now?
stevenaia Michinaga: if you are the three accused, yes
how about taboos?
Valgaav Gartle: Hrm. a different, somewhat related topic…taboos. People need them, and the church gives them.
Valgaav Gartle: Wouldn’t ‘cleansing your sins’ be a good, steady thing that everyone has to do, and not doing it is taboo?
Threedee Shepherd: Taboos: Not always. The incest taboo appears to have an origin in practical recognition of the effects of genetics
Valgaav Gartle: Sure, but if it weren’t there, it’d be necessary to find something else to fill the gap, in my opinion.
stevenaia Michinaga: Why do you think so?
stevenaia Michinaga: I see no void filled with taboos
Adelene Dawner: agreed, Steve
Valgaav Gartle: You don’t notice it. I’ll spell out how I see it.
stevenaia Michinaga: and I am asking for clarification, is all
Valgaav Gartle: The taboo is something that makes us more than animals until we learn to be on our own. As children, we are taught all the taboos from our parents, and ape more, which helps us establish permanence of nonphysical things.
Valgaav Gartle: In addition to that, such taboos always guide us through life. They’re things that form a baseline for human communication, where one is desperately needed.
Valgaav Gartle: You may run into someone who doesn’t speak your language and think it’s weird, but that’s nothing compared to meeting the guy that doesn’t have your taboos.
Valgaav Gartle: If nothing else, it gives an area a shared culture.
stevenaia Michinaga: interesting perspective, not sure I fully comprehend it;s full impact as you you see it, but will consider it until it sinks in
Valgaav Gartle: I make something of a hobby of figuring out ‘why’ on things. it comes easily for some reason.
stevenaia Michinaga: is there an answer to your question in that for you Adelene?
Adelene Dawner will have to read the log. :P
stevenaia Michinaga: are you coming at this from a Christian background Valgaav?
Valgaav Gartle: I haven’t been to church in a long time, and know the flaws in the Christian ideals arguably more than any other, why?
stevenaia Michinaga: just wondering
Valgaav Gartle: If you want to know where I stand philosophically…well, so do I. I come up with answers, and try to see if I can fit them together.
Pia Iger: Can we see human nature as is, not sinful, not virtuous either?
Valgaav Gartle: Oh, yes, and very easily. Just take the view that everything simply ‘is’, and is what we make of it.
Pia Iger: or how we choose our own behaviors without religion guidance?
Threedee Shepherd: social guidance and innate tendencies
Valgaav Gartle: looping back to a still unresolved nature/nurture debate.
Valgaav Gartle: what’s anyone’s opinion on that, anyway?
stevenaia Michinaga: is unresolved issue being what?
Val pinned down a good question.
Valgaav Gartle: how much of what we are is us, and how much comes from outside.
Pia Iger: we are mixture of these two.
stevenaia Michinaga: Not sure it matters how we got here, but what is now
Adelene Dawner is Offline
Threedee Shepherd: 50/50
Valgaav Gartle: are you sure it’s 50/50? TO me, it’s however much we’re allowed to be us, and the rest is society.
Threedee Shepherd: not 1/99 or 99/1
Valgaav Gartle: Oh, sure, not at those extremes. but it’s far more nurture, to me, in Modern society than it is nature.
Steve joked about Adelene’s disappearance.
stevenaia Michinaga: have you eaten Adelene, Three?
Threedee Shepherd: no, I suspect her computer crashed while she was typing
stevenaia Michinaga: not a taboo for a lion
Valgaav Gartle: sad when mine can handle it, and hers can’t. >_>
Pia Iger: It does happen that some people let the social rules override their own authenticity.
Valgaav Gartle: I can admit to that – I’m mostly how I am, to a large degree, because it was expected that someone who’s smart is a nerd. Therefore, I was nudged to nerdy things, and became so.
Adelene Dawner is Online
Valgaav Gartle: welcome back.
stevenaia Michinaga: wb Adelene
Threedee Shepherd: Ade, the LION was accused of eating you ;)
Adelene Dawner: stupid computer.
Adelene Dawner: oh, my… who thought that?
Valgaav Gartle: maybe he got annoyed at all the feathers tickling him.
Threedee Shepherd: I won’t tell, but the log will ;D
Adelene Dawner: speaking of log, can someone drop me a notecard?
Pia Iger: ok.
stevenaia Michinaga: appreciate your discreet, Three, thanks
Threedee Shepherd: ^.^
Adelene Dawner accepted your inventory offer.
stevenaia Michinaga: tell me you aren’t on a MAC Adelene
Adelene Dawner: nope. *checks log* hmm. Am I even still speaking to you, Steve? ^.-
stevenaia Michinaga: …. smile
Valgaav Gartle: Hate to ask stupid questions, but shouldn’t the Recorder be On?
stevenaia Michinaga: the hour is late and I;m runingout out of feet to put in my mouth
stevenaia Michinaga: I must be off
Valgaav Gartle: be well.
Pia Iger: night, Steve
Adelene Dawner: ‘night, Steve
stevenaia Michinaga: night
Steve left.
Valgaav Gartle: sleep well. don’t dream.
Adelene Dawner tweaks Three’s tail and points to his IM box.
Pia Iger: is ‘dont dream’ better than “sweet dream”?
Valgaav Gartle: Certainly more interesting.
Valgaav Gartle: a sweet dream will be lost, leaving you without that sweetness and more depressed for it. no dreams means you wake up quickly and ready to get going.
Threedee Shepherd: night folks
Adelene Dawner: Note to self, have Pema talk to Val about attachment.
Adelene Dawner: ‘night, Three. Cya tomorrow. ^.^
Valgaav Gartle: oh? ANd dream of good hunts.
Pia Iger: hehe
Valgaav Gartle: who’s Pema, and should I be scared?
Adelene Dawner: Only if you have a problem with having your ears talked off. ^.^
Valgaav Gartle: but I like my ears!
Valgaav Gartle: you could say I’m somewhat /attached/ to them.
Adelene Dawner: Don’t worry, he’ll give them back at the end. ^.^
I picked up the discussion.
Pia Iger: I was thinking the opposite of Val said “it’s far more nurture, to me, in Modern society than it is nature.”
Valgaav Gartle: Oh? There’s much claim to nature, but there’s far more pressure to nurture.
Pia Iger: since modern life gave us more independence, we have less need to rely on religion and community to give us security.
Adelene Dawner: I don’t think the two are separable – they combine… it’s in our nature to be flexible enough to respond to nurture in the ways that we do, for one.
Valgaav Gartle: the thing is that, for Adelene’s statement, it only really works for adult life, or at least once you hit tithe teens.
Valgaav Gartle: and by then, a lot of…did I say Adeline’s? I meant Pia’s.
Adelene Dawner: I was goona say.
Valgaav Gartle: anyway, by then a lot of the aspects of the culture have already been set into us.
Pia Iger: today’s early education do give more respect to individuality. while way back, kids had to conform more.
Adelene Dawner: …that might not be a can of worms you want to open in front of us, Pia.
Valgaav Gartle: Before they had to, I’d say, but now the force is more subtle.
Valgaav Gartle: Maybe not in front of you.
Did I open a can of worms? maybe not.
Valgaav Gartle: she has something of a history there. Arguably I do to, but I’ve never been one to let it get in the way.
Adelene Dawner shrugs. “Fine, Val, go ahead then.”
Valgaav Gartle: I agree that it has been rougher in the past than it is now. However, there’s definitely stuff now, as well, and it’s not to be discounted.
Valgaav Gartle: There’s all sorts of more subtle pressures that couldn’t exist before, arguably, though the more obvious – and therefore easier to circumvent – were rougher.
Pia Iger: I guess so.
Pia Iger: the reason I can guess why Adelene did not buy into the sin concept, is probably she is more in tune to herself.
Valgaav Gartle: There are many things I could say to that. none of them would be appreciated.
Adelene Dawner: Go ahead, Val. I won’t get ruffled.
Valgaav Gartle: oh har har.
Pia Iger: we may have to separate you two in next session:)
Valgaav Gartle: she lives within biking distance of me. It wouldn’t help.
Valgaav Gartle: she’d just ride over and bop me there.
Adelene Dawner rolls her eyes.
Valgaav Gartle: anyroad, Adelene, I have permission to speak freely on the matter?
Adelene Dawner: As I said, yes.
Valgaav Gartle: Okay, so.
Valgaav Gartle: Adelene…well, she’s changed a lot from how and who she used to be. The (PG) at the top is suggesting I not say what she used to be. However, as I said, she’s changed, and like everyone who does, she finds it improbable that she did everything she did as a child on her own.
Valgaav Gartle: She, therefore, projects blame onto others – specifically our parents, as I can remember things she’s claimed happened I’d have been there for, and they didn’t – and made things far worse, in the belief that they’re to blame.
Valgaav Gartle: She mostly didn’t buy into’ the concept of ‘sin’ because our parents are Christian and not doing so pissed them off.
Pia Iger: Adelene, you have 2 min to present your counter point:)
Valgaav Gartle: By the way, thanks, Adelene. You gave me great insight and singlehandedly created the ‘other’ theory, which I may get into later.
Adelene Dawner: I know he believes that. I assume you know me better than that by now.
Adelene Dawner: And I find the idea that so much of what I do would be related to ‘pissing off my parents’ rather… arrogant, on their part. (Rather, *her* part, as I’m pretty sure Dad isn’t even involved here.)
Valgaav Gartle: They never brought it up. This is my own observation.
Valgaav Gartle: or, as much as it can be, as this started with a nature/nurture debate.
Adelene Dawner shrugs. “Says more about you than it does about anyone else, then, if you thought it up. But as I said earlier, this isn’t an argument I want to have again.”
Valgaav Gartle stage-whispers to Pia. “Note the again.”
Thanks for their openness. But I had to give my 2 cents as matter of a fact.
Pia Iger: sorry for muddling. I would feel Adelene’s not believing in sin would come beyond the reason of pissing anyone off.
Pia Iger: from what I know of her so far here.
Valgaav Gartle: Oh, I don’t doubt that it would seem so! She’s changed quite a lot, and into someone who could’ve come up with it on her own.
Pia Iger: change is good at least! Any of you want to take part of the discussion off record? I can remove from the log.
Valgaav Gartle: n’aah. To be honest, the sooner I get off of SL, the sooner I can open up any other programs. This thing munches memory.
Adelene Dawner: I’m okay. Pia.
Pia Iger: ok. hope see you again, Val. and thanks, Adelene.
Valgaav Gartle: Weekly meetings, right?
Pia Iger: have a good night, dream or not?
Adelene Dawner: Every 6 hours, Val. 4 and 10, local time.
Valgaav Gartle: Hold.
Valgaav Gartle: I’m normally not here at 9.
Valgaav Gartle: I usually get home on Tuesdays at 10.
Valgaav Gartle: or rather, leave the place.
Valgaav Gartle: I get home around 10:15, 10:30.
Pia Iger: Val, we have meetings every day,
Adelene Dawner: Come, or don’t, as you please. No obligation.
Valgaav Gartle: ah, okay.
Valgaav Gartle: I’ll probably be more present at the 10 than the 4.
Adelene Dawner: mum
Pia Iger: so, see you all next time.

Time, Space, and Memory

The Guardian this session was genesis Zhangsun. The comments below are hers.

I arrived to Bill and two white clouds called Adelene and Corvi

Adelene Dawner: Gen! Corvus! Bill! :D
genesis Zhangsun: Hey All
Solobill Laville: Hey, friends!
Solobill Laville: I TP’ed just as Adelene was…
genesis Zhangsun: everything is rezzing very slowly for me
Solobill Laville: And I had the tremendous vision of her rezzing right in front of me!
Solobill Laville: piece – by – piece :)
Adelene Dawner chuckles.
genesis Zhangsun: is it like this for everything?
genesis Zhangsun: oops everyone?
Solobill Laville: (a lot of pieces too I guess)
Adelene Dawner: rezzing a bit slow here, too.
genesis Zhangsun: I see Solobill and Adelene but no Corvi
genesis Zhangsun: ah there
genesis Zhangsun: should we start the recorder?

I was amazed to find a recording device on the center table and wanted to give it a try…especially if it meant no more posting logs manually!

Solobill Laville: Is it working now??
PaB Listener Master: I’ve been touched by a PaB guardian.
PaB Listener Master: Recording has started!

Adelene tells us about her new blog…

Adelene Dawner: So I finally broke down and I’m starting to keep a journal. http://angelshelper81.livejournal.com/
genesis Zhangsun: I think we are testing
genesis Zhangsun: oh nice!
Solobill Laville: That is wonderful Adelene!
genesis Zhangsun: Like a blog?
Adelene Dawner: Yes, Gen.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I am very glad of it, Adelene.
Solobill Laville: Do you find it is beneficial so far?
Adelene Dawner: Oh and Corvus, just to confirm, that *was* me giving permission for you to post whatever you want of anything I say to your blog.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Thank you.
Adelene Dawner: Well, I’ve only written one entry so far, Bill.
Adelene Dawner: But I expect that it will be.
genesis Zhangsun: Do you have one too Corvi?
Solobill Laville nods
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I do, though I am very sporadic.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: http://crowsshinythings.blogspot.com/
genesis Zhangsun: ty
genesis Zhangsun: why did you name it crowsshinythings?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Adelene has discovered it, but until now it was only her and Wol.
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
genesis Zhangsun: Hey Myoko?
Myoko Fhang: Hi guys

Corvus explains the origin of her unusual name…

Corvuscorva Nightfire: Corvus is the family of crows, magpies and ravens.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hiya Myoko
Solobill Laville: Hey, Myoko
genesis Zhangsun: Ah ok I didn’t recognize the origin of your name
Corvuscorva Nightfire grins
genesis Zhangsun: Do you have a special connection to this group of birds?
genesis Zhangsun: symbolic?
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods…I like the way they are…you can read a little about it in the blog actually.
genesis Zhangsun: ok!
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I like that they are curious and intuitive…
Corvuscorva Nightfire: and peck at stuff..
Myoko Fhang: Got to love the ravens
Corvuscorva Nightfire giggles.
genesis Zhangsun: they are thought of as messenger birds
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
genesis Zhangsun: guardians of the void
Corvuscorva Nightfire: There is alot of myth around Ravens and crows.
Adelene Dawner grins. “It’s kind of neat having another crow-person around. Birdfolk aren’t too common, it seems.”
Corvuscorva Nightfire glances over at Adelene..”indeed”
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Solobill Laville: In the fall where I live
Solobill Laville: we have huge flocks of starlings
Solobill Laville: that fly pretty much as one huge organism
Solobill Laville: it is amazing to see
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods..”I love that..I see it occasionally here as well”
Myoko Fhang: Isn’t it called black sun?
Solobill Laville: oh? I haven’t heard that before Myoko, but I can see that :)
Myoko Fhang: It’s really beautifull
Corvuscorva Nightfire: The way they fly seems like a pattern of thought.
Solobill Laville: yes, and just as “flighty” ;)
Corvuscorva Nightfire guffaws.
Myoko Fhang: wow
Solobill Laville sighs
Solobill Laville: sorry
Myoko Fhang: I am still taken a back with place…

At that moment I hearding crowing and looked up to see crows circling the pavilion

genesis Zhangsun: did someone release a crow here?
genesis Zhangsun: did you see that now there are crows flying around
genesis Zhangsun: is that just me?
Corvuscorva Nightfire snorts
Adelene Dawner giggles guiltily.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I recognise those crows..
genesis Zhangsun: are they always here?
Solobill Laville: I think Adelene may be involved :)
genesis Zhangsun: ah ok
genesis Zhangsun: i thought it was one of those things where you hear something and then you start to see it everywhere
Adelene Dawner: I just rezzed it. It’s four prims. I can derez it when I leave… but wasn’t planning to. ^.^
genesis Zhangsun: no its nice
Solobill Laville: hey, Myoko…
Solobill Laville: Myoko Fhang: I am still taken a back with place…
Solobill Laville: What were you referring to?
Wol Euler: hello everyone
Myoko Fhang: The the crow.
Corvuscorva Nightfire grins at Adelene..I think we ought to keep it.
genesis Zhangsun: Hey Wol
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hiya Wol?
Solobill Laville: ah
Adelene Dawner: :D @ Corvus
Myoko Fhang: hey wol
Solobill Laville: Hi, Wol
Wol Euler hears a lot of voices in an empty room.
Solobill Laville: Yes, a bit laggy today it would seem
Myoko Fhang: [just realized how to take off the funny hair…]
Solobill Laville: you’re a but “Ruthy” on my end :)
Wol Euler: I hear crows…
Adelene Dawner is setting up a small flock on the roof ^.^
Wol Euler: ah :-)
genesis Zhangsun: one of the neat things about SL you can say something and it magically appears
genesis Zhangsun: with a little help from Adelene
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Wol Euler: ah, there they are.
Adelene Dawner: What you’re probably seeing on the roof are bases, Wol – they rez temp-on-rez fliers at random intervals and go invisible ’till the related flier derezzes.

I loved the crows but I wanted to get into some heavy topics I had meant to get in on the Time Dimension google group discussion but didn’t really know how to jump in…I thought this might be the perfect time to bring it up no pun intended :)

genesis Zhangsun: So has anyone thought about Pema’s email about zeroth time?
genesis Zhangsun: fourth time? time in general
Myoko Fhang: Haven’t seen it, but been thinking alot about time lately.
Myoko Fhang: Can you recap real fast?
Adelene Dawner: I haven’t really read it in depth, but I think you guys might be talking abotu the fifth dimension, in which case it’s not really ‘time’, it’s something else altogether, just like ‘north’ isn’t ‘east’ or ‘west’
Solobill Laville: But in curved sapce north can also be south (as in walking around a circle), yes?
Myoko Fhang: Time se is usually the fourth isn’t it?
Solobill Laville: *space
Wol Euler: hello andy, welcome back
andypandy Snoodle: hi, thanks
Adelene Dawner: Yes, Solo – I meant ‘north’ and ‘east’ and ‘west’ in their everyday mundane uses disregarding the earth’s spherical nature… I don’t know if there are words for the directions in true 3d space unrelated to living on a globe.
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Andy
andypandy Snoodle: Hi
Solobill Laville: :)
Adelene Dawner: And yes, Myoko, time is the 4th dimension

I couldn’t remember exactly what Pema wrote in his email re: time/space v. time as another dimension and decided to look it up and post it as a reference:

genesis Zhangsun: Pema’s mail: One observation we have talked about is that when we consider time, we think we are dealing with time having a past-present-future structure. It seems that way. We can remember the past. We can anticipate the future. We clearly seem to be in the present. This is comparable to “the sun seems to revolve around the Earth.” Now entertain the working hypothesis that the three times are an illusion. Imagine that there is only a fourth time. And within that fourth time the other three would seem to arise. What could that mean? What would that feel like? What observations would that give rise to? Would such predicted observations fit our experience equally well as our observations of past-present-future?
genesis Zhangsun: Oops that was long
genesis Zhangsun: this was what Pema wrote in the email
Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
Corvuscorva Nightfire: still sounds like the 5th dimension to me.
Myoko Fhang: Interesting.
Solobill Laville: In that context, time is really quite similar to other “expressions” of Being, as proposed by Pema
Adelene Dawner: Actually, what Pema wrote doesn’t sound very much like the 5th dimension at all. But the 5th dimension is the closest concept I have to what he’s saying.
Wol Euler: it’s certainly not the directional flow of time that we live in.
genesis Zhangsun: could you explain that a bit?
genesis Zhangsun: some say consciousness is the 5th?
genesis Zhangsun: that was directed to Adelene
Solobill Laville thought so ;)
Adelene Dawner: Actually, if free will exists, we need to be able to *move* in teh 5th dimension (from one timeline to another) which seems to imply that there are at least 6.
Wol Euler: hmmmm
genesis Zhangsun: mathematically there is a max of 17-19
Adelene Dawner: I’d love to see that math sometime, Gen. Even if I can’t understand it, I wanna roll around in the numbers. ^.^
Wol Euler: however if all these timelines exist already (for certain values of “exist” and “already”) then there is no free will in those dimensions?
Adelene Dawner: It does require redefining ‘free will’ a bit, Gen.
Adelene Dawner: Er.
Adelene Dawner: Wol.
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Myoko Fhang: Are we talking about psycs or psycologi here?
Myoko Fhang: physics…
Adelene Dawner looks at Myoko. “Yes.”
Wol Euler: we are probably at the point where they meet.

Wol and Myoko nailed it on the head, a great question and great answer

Solobill Laville: lol
Solobill Laville: indeed
Adelene Dawner: “Free will” makes sense as “the ability to choose which timeline to experience”, yes?
Myoko Fhang: I mean the time my sense of self creates and the time measurred by gravtation is something completly different?
Wol Euler: mmmm yes, but it reduces “freedom” to a restaurant menu. I can have chicken or beef but not pork
Adelene Dawner: oh, the second of those, Myoko.
Myoko Fhang: ok
genesis Zhangsun: how would those be different Adelene?
Adelene Dawner: Kinda, Wol. You can’t free-will yourself into having your RL body float to the ceiling, after all.
Solobill Laville: hmmmm
genesis Zhangsun: is there objective v. subjective time?
genesis Zhangsun: Is there really an objective world beyond our subjective world?
Adelene Dawner: ‘sense of self time’ is very much tied in with the ability to make, store, and recall memories. I actually have a signifigant impairment there, so I’m well aware of that.
Solobill Laville: THen what of the 2nd type Adelene? It would seem that the time measured by gravity is variable…
Adelene Dawner: I’d need to know rather more physics than I do now to really get into that, Solo.
Solobill Laville: Fair answer :)
Myoko Fhang: A fourth dimesion of in the domain of subjectivity would make sense. It would be like asking what does arise from.
Adelene Dawner: I have a general idea of what kinds of things might cause that, but I’d rather have some firmer grouns to stand on.
Adelene Dawner: *ground
Myoko Fhang: Yeah physical time is endeed variable.
genesis Zhangsun: time arising from space?
Solobill Laville: Then does time exist if there is no subject Myoko? :)
Adelene Dawner: Variable compared to what, though, Myoko?
Solobill Laville: Oops, a lot of questions at Myoko :)
Myoko Fhang: Hahaha. Slobo: No Adelene: I mean you can meassure time in space vs earth and see that gravity make time go slower.
Solobill Laville: yes, that was what I was referring to as well
Solobill Laville: So in that refard “time” is not a constant thing
Solobill Laville: *g
genesis Zhangsun: time arises from the subjective experience of space?
Myoko Fhang: It’s
Solobill Laville: I had a thought the other day that time is what space does
Adelene Dawner: Perhaps, Myoko, gravity makes *us* move faster or slower (physics knowledge limitations :P) through time, like it can make us move faster or slower through the up-down dimension.
Myoko Fhang: Psycological time is the patch work we make to create a continuity.
genesis Zhangsun: I agree with you Solo
Myoko Fhang: Adelene: I have no clue what the implications are on the dimesions
Solobill Laville: (I’m sure that isn’t my original thought, of course, Gen) :)
Myoko Fhang: Solo> Dogen (old zen guy) said exactly that. We are time and time are us.
Solobill Laville: Me and Degen are like this
Solobill Laville makes cool hand to chest to head gesture, or something
Myoko Fhang: I bet you go way back….
Solobill Laville: :)
Solobill Laville: I’m all about the Shobogenzo, baby
Wol Euler raises an eyebrow.
Solobill Laville: easy wol
Solobill Laville: Is anyone familiar with the topic of orthogonality?
Myoko Fhang: Hahaha. Got to love that book.
You: do tell
Wol Euler: nope
Solobill Laville: Rats
Solobill Laville: I only know the very basics
Solobill Laville: but it seems that there may something to it in terms of this whole time discussion, perhaps
genesis Zhangsun: like in math?
Solobill Laville: yes!
Solobill Laville: things that share some relationship but not any shared information
Solobill Laville: like parallel lines
Solobill Laville: or x, y, and z axes
genesis Zhangsun: the image is of a perpendicular street above a subway going in a straight line
genesis Zhangsun: they never meet
Wol Euler is reading wikipedia on her laptop, orthogonally to this discussion.
genesis Zhangsun: yes me too
Solobill Laville: right
Wol Euler: I must be really dense today, because I have absolutely no idea what that means.
Solobill Laville: Time seems to be orthogonal to space, in some way
Solobill Laville: hehe, me too Wol…
Myoko Fhang: Dont make me find me english dictionary….
Myoko Fhang: orthogonally?
Adelene Dawner: One thing I’ve noticed is that we’re using the word to mean two rather different things – the dimension, and our movement through that dimension.
Adelene Dawner: (the word ‘time’, I mean)
genesis Zhangsun: yes Adelene
Wol Euler: mmhmm
genesis Zhangsun: lets talk about the difference
genesis Zhangsun: dimension is what I think Pema meant by zeroth time or absolute time
Solobill Laville: I agree, but not so sure they’re seperatable
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hiya, Dav.
Adelene Dawner: hi Dav
Myoko Fhang: hi dave
Solobill Laville: :)
Adelene Dawner: Solo, is ‘north’ seperatable from ‘walking along a north-south road’?
Davmar Hykova: hello all
Wol Euler: hello davmar
Solobill Laville: I think that depends on the mind-set of the walker
Davmar Hykova: Hello Wol
Solobill Laville: (and I’m not trying to be a smart-allec) :)
Adelene Dawner: Better question – does ‘north’ exist if you’re not walking in that direction? Say, if you’re walking due west?
genesis Zhangsun: so we are only talking about it as time/space Adelne
genesis Zhangsun: our experience of time as we walk through space
genesis Zhangsun: which is the 4thj
Solobill Laville: Ah..hmmm..
genesis Zhangsun: but perhaps the 5th would a absolute time dimension?
Davmar Hykova: oh yes North is reliant on physics and not your azimuth ie direction
Solobill Laville: I guess it would, Adelene, because West can be defined by “not North”
Wol Euler: north is where that bus I mus dodge is coming from.
Solobill Laville: Jump!
genesis Zhangsun: lol
Davmar Hykova: its related to the magnetic field of the earth but for north read also south
Adelene Dawner: Time is a dimension – the word ‘direction’ may be better – the same as North is. So talking about one has simple paralells to the other.

Nothing seemed simple about the thoughts in this discussion though running parallel might be accurate ;)

Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Wol Euler: hello gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: (sorry to join so late)
genesis Zhangsun: Hey Gaya
Solobill Laville: :)
Adelene Dawner: Actually, ‘not North’ would be South – part of the same thing, dimension-wise.
genesis Zhangsun: we are talking time and Pema’s email
Davmar Hykova: space time is what the phyicists prefer to use
Myoko Fhang: m(–)m
Wol Euler: there#s a space between Gen and i, gaya.
Solobill Laville: Hmmm, couldn’t “not North” be anything that was not North?
Corvuscorva Nightfire throws notecards to DAv and Gaya
genesis Zhangsun: Oh my!
Gaya Ethaniel: ty
Myoko Fhang: I am lost.
Adelene Dawner: In a sense, Solo, I guess.
Faenik: why not?
genesis Zhangsun: ok can I bring in a practical perspective?
Solobill Laville: PLease :)
Adelene Dawner: How are you lost, Myoko?
Adelene Dawner: (go ahead, Gen)
Solobill Laville: (and ty Faenik)
genesis Zhangsun: Can we all think of a time when we experienced time as something other than past-present-future?
Solobill Laville: yes
genesis Zhangsun: lets talk about that
Adelene Dawner chuckles. “Every day.”
genesis Zhangsun: bring it back to experience
genesis Zhangsun: what was that like?
Davmar Hykova: i do appologise to everybody for coming late
Solobill Laville: np, Dav :)
Myoko Fhang: Adelene: I just got a litle theoretical…
Myoko Fhang: I love how Pemas mail has the potential to derail our habit of thinking in time.

Myoko Fhang: It’s like asking, what would be there if there was no past and future….

Meanwhile Solobill appears to be rapidly typing away….

Solobill Laville erases

Solobill Laville: :)
Solobill Laville: Dunno, Gen
Adelene Dawner chuckles. “Remember how I said I have a memory impairment? I *live* in the reality you’re positing, Myoko.”
genesis Zhangsun: damn
Myoko Fhang: An personally, for me it’s a alot about snapping out of habitual thinking.
Solobill Laville: hehe
genesis Zhangsun: but perhaps that is reality
genesis Zhangsun: because from what we were saying earlier
genesis Zhangsun: it is our mind that patches the continuity
genesis Zhangsun: this has nothing to do with “objective” reality
Faenik: なるほど^^
genesis Zhangsun: perhaps objective reality is only now
Myoko Fhang: Adelene> I find that very interesting.
genesis Zhangsun: I was reacting to what Adelene said
genesis Zhangsun: we cannot prove the existence of the past or the future can we?>
Adelene Dawner: (And to clarify that ‘memory impairment’ – there are at least three different ‘flavors’ of memory – I have muscle memory and fact memory but not situational memory – I only remember about 3-5 minutes of actual time around ‘now’ unless I make a special effort to encode something.)
Adelene Dawner: (I seem normal because I’ve learned how to have fact memory pick up the slack.)
Solobill Laville: And what about anticipating the future Adelene?
Wol Euler nods.
Adelene Dawner: I generally don’t bother unless there’s a specific reason.
Wol Euler chuckles
Solobill Laville: :)
genesis Zhangsun: that seems very healthy :)
Wol Euler: probably very wise.
Adelene Dawner: Works for me ^.^
Solobill Laville: Well, friends, I must be off!
Myoko Fhang: I am coming to terms with giving up past and future, but is pema also kicking present?
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Solobill Laville: Bye, all! :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire snorts
genesis Zhangsun: Bye Solo!
Wol Euler: bye solo, take care.
Myoko Fhang: buy solo
Corvuscorva Nightfire: awwww bye Bill
Davmar Hykova: bye solo
Adelene Dawner: “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away”… ‘now’ seems pretty solid to me. ^.^
genesis Zhangsun: I don’t hink he is kicking out present just its context in linear time
Corvuscorva Nightfire imagines Presents jumping out of a nonlinear sheet of “time”
Adelene Dawner: Also entirely possible, Corvus, but not a useful model.
Adelene Dawner: (At least, it doesn’t seem useful – how would we even know?)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: not meant as a model…
Corvuscorva Nightfire: just a vision of that last statement
Adelene Dawner: I know, Corvus. And as I said, it’e entirely possible that that’s real.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: ohhhhh
genesis Zhangsun: Experientially I have a few experiences as do we all I think where time stopped
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I guess I wasn’t taking it seriously at all..
genesis Zhangsun: in those times I felt that my mind was stilled
genesis Zhangsun: thoughts stopped
genesis Zhangsun: or at least the chaos of thoughts
genesis Zhangsun: I wonder how movement and time are related
Adelene Dawner grins at Gen. “Neat, innit?”
Faenik: なるほど^^
genesis Zhangsun: training the mind to see another dimension, stilling the mind
genesis Zhangsun: perhaps this is what 9 seconds is about
genesis Zhangsun: why we are all here
Myoko Fhang: Thoughts are indeed driving time.
Myoko Fhang: And what about death in all of this?
Myoko Fhang: Ok ok….getting a bit far fetched there.
Adelene Dawner: One of these days, I’m going to make my scripted model of the answer to that question, Myoko. You might not like it tho.
Myoko Fhang: Hahahaha. Make me upset!
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Wol Euler: let’s get the autologging working first though …
Adelene Dawner: Mmhmm. And all the paid work I’m behind on.
Wol Euler grins.
genesis Zhangsun: Yeah hmmm….speaking of work and time
genesis Zhangsun: I got to go
Adelene Dawner: ^^
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Wol Euler: bye gen, take care.
genesis Zhangsun: can someone send me the log?
Myoko Fhang: Ever thought about why thoughts are so obsessed with time?
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
Wol Euler: don’t fall between the dimensions.
Myoko Fhang: Bye bye
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
genesis Zhangsun: Bye
Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye!
Adelene Dawner: cya gen
genesis Zhangsun: cya

I left to get back to writing grants and later Adelene was kind enough to send the rest of the log…

Gaya Ethaniel: thoughts only make sense if put in the context of time perhaps
Myoko Fhang: But I mean, they rarely take interest in the present….
Adelene Dawner: Spweak for yourself, Myoko. ^.^
Myoko Fhang: That should at least be an option…
Myoko Fhang: HAhahaha
Adelene Dawner: *speak
Gaya Ethaniel: squeak?
Adelene Dawner chuckles at Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: ah… speak…
Faenik: indeed?
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Adelene Dawner: My thoughts are very much focused on ‘now’ – mostly because I can’t store this ‘now’ into memory at all to think about later. I have to get all the meaning I can out of ‘now’, now, and store it as facts, if I want any memory of it at all.
Wol Euler: hmmmm
Adelene Dawner: Not that that’s likely to be useful to anybody else… but that realization does explain a few things about myself that I’ve been wondering about.
Gaya Ethaniel: how can you think about now now?… can’t understand how that can be done Adele
Myoko Fhang: Interesting, but we seem to be wired a bit differently
Adelene Dawner: It does take a particular kind of focus, Gaya.
Gaya Ethaniel: by the time I think about ‘now’, that ‘now’ is kinda gone?
Adelene Dawner: And yes, Myoko – I know I’m wired weird. I’m autistic.
Adelene Dawner: Well, I do have a three to five minute window, Gaya. It’s not completely instantanious.
Gaya Ethaniel: ah… wow
Myoko Fhang: Second Gaya there. I can sense and be present, but then thinking falls away…
Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
Gaya Ethaniel has problems thinking while ‘being present’
Adelene Dawner: Thinking falls away very easily for me. It’s more natural for me to just be here, no thinking at all. I make the effort, though – it’s kind of fun. ^.^
Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles at Adelene.
Adelene Dawner: If you look back in the log to times when I’ve been having ‘bad brain weeks’ and ‘bad brain months’, though, you can see me struggling to keep up, thought-wise.
Faenik: could be
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Do you lose all the facts from those moments?
Gaya Ethaniel: to be honest, unless you say that you’re having ‘bad brain moments’, I can’t tell Adele if you’re listening or having those periods
Adelene Dawner: gah, I go afk for two minutes and people decide to talk ^.^
Wol Euler: always the way.
Corvuscorva Nightfire giggles.
Faenik giggles. that tickles.
Adelene Dawner: Corvus – hard to tell, since I don’t remember the actual conversations to know which facts belong to which one. I don’t think so, though. I have some level of control over what skills I lose when my brain starts to go dodgy, and memory’s important. That’s not to say that my ability to notice the facts doesn’t decline, but I have no way of really knowing if that happens.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods. That makes perfect sense.
Faenik: indeed?
Adelene Dawner: Gaya – it’s not too obvious unless I’m *really* having a bad brain day, in which case I start to lose the ability to form sentences. If you know me very well, though, there are other signs that become obvious. Increased typos, for example, or typing the wrong word, or a ‘flat tone of voice’.
Gaya Ethaniel: ah… ok
Davmar Hykova: sorry everybody I have to go
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Adelene Dawner: cya Dav
Davmar Hykova: thank you very much again
Wol Euler: bye dav, take care.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Bye Dav!
Faenik: indeed?
Davmar Hykova: thank you all
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Adelene Dawner: My realization, earlier, if anyone’s interested, is that that’s probably why I get overloaded – for you guys, it seems like you can just set your brains to ‘record’ and go over the data sometime that’s less pressured. I can’t, so I wind up trying to do too much at once.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Wol Euler: an apt image.
Wol Euler: put it on the “deal with that later” stack.
Adelene Dawner: Which *also* explains, perhaps, why your thoughts are so focused on other times. you always have a ‘deal with that later’ stack to go through.
Wol Euler: ha!
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think that is absolutely the truth of that..
Wol Euler: yes, indeed.
Adelene Dawner bows. “Glad to help.” ^.^
Wol Euler laughs
Gaya Ethaniel: I just let it go… don’t try to record…
Corvuscorva Nightfire grins.
Gaya Ethaniel: if want to record, I just write it down and forget about it…
Adelene Dawner: Gaya, can you remember what you ate for lunch?
Gaya Ethaniel: have to think for a bit one moment
Gaya Ethaniel: maki rolls
Adelene Dawner: your brain recorded that.
Adelene Dawner: Otherwise you wouldn’t be able to remember it at all.
Faenik: why not?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: but…that is a fact?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: but i guess not one that one would put in the fact pile…
Adelene Dawner: It may be tagged – correctly – as ‘I don’t need to worry about this’, but it was still recorded. (It’s also an example of a fact, not a situation, though Gaya may’ve used a situation memory to recall the fact.)
Gaya Ethaniel: situation memory?
Wol Euler: interesting terminology.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Wol Euler adds another item to her “do that later” pile.
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Adelene Dawner: There are real scientific terms for this stuff, Wol – I can look ’em up if you want.
Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs.
Wol Euler shakes her head. THe descriptiono is as good or better than the latin would be.
Adelene Dawner: They’re not latin, but ok.
Gaya Ethaniel: well I had to look back if/when I actually ate something for lunch… couldn’t remember it… so pictured my fridge… nothing came up then I went through what I did this morning until the afternoon then remembered my food shopping… then bam yes maki rolls
Adelene Dawner: fact memory is “semantic”, I can’t find the other right now.
Adelene Dawner: Yes, that’s situational memory, Gaya. Most people are stronger at that than at fact memory.
Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok got it
Adelene Dawner: Situational memory is also strongly tied to emotion.
Gaya Ethaniel: sensory too
Adelene Dawner: In the sense that emotions help form situation memories, actually.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: OH!
Gaya Ethaniel: ah… ok
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I was sitting here wondering why your descriptions sounded so familiar…
Adelene Dawner: (And yes, my emotions tend to be very subdued, too.)
Adelene Dawner: hmm, Corvus?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: at times..due to depression..my emotions have been subdued too…and I have had to focus on other ways of “remembering”
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Adelene Dawner: “Episodic”, that’s the other kind. Semantic and Episodic memory make up declarative memory, and then procedural memory is about muscle movement and stuff like that.
Adelene Dawner: oh interesting… I’m on wikipedia, of course… pavlovian conditioning is considered procedural memory. Not surprising. And I also rely a *lot* on that.
Faenik: ah :)
Gaya Ethaniel looks up wikipedia for all these memory terms
Adelene Dawner: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-te…emory#See_also
Gaya Ethaniel: ty
Adelene Dawner: the box at the bottom of the screen is the useful bit.
Adelene Dawner: …sensory memory? They have a *name* for that?
Wol Euler: eeeeenteresting.
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Wol Euler: I rely on body memory for many things, I realize. I have no idea what my SL password is, I just let my hands type it in.
Gaya Ethaniel: … mm how about smell? just visual and auditory only? strange
Adelene Dawner: It seems like I make extensive conscious use of all the kinds of memory other than episodic. And yes, Wol, that’s not at all surprising to me. ^.^
Faenik: ah :)
Gaya Ethaniel: yes like playing instruments Wol
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Adelene Dawner: Sensory memory absolutely exists for the other senses, too, Gaya. I seem to have an overactive touch-memory, which is a big part of why I don’t like people touching me. On a bad day, I can still feel exactly where they touched me up to an hour later. On a good day, it’s ‘only’ two or three minutes.
Gaya Ethaniel: ah…
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Adelene Dawner: (The exact type of touch matters, too – that’s a simplification.)
Faenik: could be
Gaya Ethaniel: does it kind of feel warms/tingly? areas that were touched?
Gaya Ethaniel: warm/tingly*
Adelene Dawner: It feels like being touched. Slightly less immediate than actually being touched, but otherwise the same.
Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok
Faenik: なるほど^^
Wol Euler: has anyone seen … what was it called? damn.
Wol Euler: a film about memory.
Wol Euler: ha.
Corvuscorva Nightfire snorts.
Gaya Ethaniel: Memento
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Wol Euler: yes!
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I have…a couple of good ones..
Wol Euler: well done.
Gaya Ethaniel: was a good one
Adelene Dawner: Haven’t, but it did look interesting.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: It was.
Wol Euler: quite fascinating.
Wol Euler: I played with thte idea of ripping hte DVD and putting it nito the “right” order, to see what the story was like when told that way.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: oh!
Corvuscorva Nightfire: wow…
Corvuscorva Nightfire: that would be fun to watch, too…after seeing the movie.
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
Faenik: indeed?
Wol Euler: bye corvi
Gaya Ethaniel: too late… see you Corvi
Adelene Dawner: heh
Faenik: ah :)
Wol Euler sighs. My dears, I must go. It is after midnight.
Wol Euler: It was grand to see you again.
Gaya Ethaniel: Good night Wol. Sleep well
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Wol Euler: good night, take care.
Adelene Dawner: ‘night, Wol
Gaya Ethaniel: Same here. See you soon again Adele. Good day.
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Wol Euler: adelene, I’ll remove my master here, it is just confusing things.
Adelene Dawner: No, mine should go, it’s old.
Wol Euler: … or change the permissions, so I can put my scripts into it. yours is prettier.
Adelene Dawner: I don’t think that’s possible unless I set it so you can edit all my objects.
Adelene Dawner: I’ll give you a copy of the prim, tho. ^.^
Wol Euler: yes plese, and make that copy/mod/transfer.
Wol Euler: I liked the opening-out trick.
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Adelene Dawner: I’m leaving that script in but marking it no-script so you know there’s no listener master in it.
Wol Euler accepted your inventory offer.
Wol Euler: good, ty.
Adelene Dawner: :)
Adelene Dawner: go to bed
Wol Euler: yes, I should.
Wol Euler: good ight, take care.
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Adelene Dawner: you too

Celebrate Continuum

This morning the avatar Riddle Sideways was Guardian on Call and added these comments.

Last night started Rosh Hashanah (Jewish new year and beginning of the days of Awe and reflection).  I was in a comtemplative, awestuck (awe-full?), prayer, celebrate, reflective, traditional, etc. space.  This was exactly the right time/space to have Avastu to chat with exclusively.

I really apreciate where it goes toward the end.

Riddle Sideways: good morning Avastu
Avastu Maruti: love to you my friend
Riddle Sideways: very long time since we have met
Avastu Maruti: seems that way
Riddle Sideways: I hope that time has been good to you
PaB Listener Master: I’ve been touched by a PaB guardian.
PaB Listener Master: Recording has started!

Just in case the auto-recorder is working I start yer up.
Avastu starts right into the deep philosophy, so I am off to telling my stories.

Avastu Maruti: whatever arises, arises perfectly
Riddle Sideways: and what has been arising lately?
Avastu Maruti: nothing at all
Avastu Maruti: and you?
Riddle Sideways: this group has brought up many thoughts, ideas and arisings
Riddle Sideways: so that when I went to temple last night
Riddle Sideways: there was a slightly different openness
Avastu Maruti: yes
Riddle Sideways: many years there is the feeling of having heard it before
Riddle Sideways: and there we were hearing it anew again
Riddle Sideways: there was this rabbi that got up and told us stories
Riddle Sideways: stories of the daily lives that members of my religion have done, been and celebrated for thousands of years
Avastu Maruti: it is a wonderful tradition

Judism has deep tradions.  As anybody that has seen “Fiddler on the Roof” would know.  Today, Tradition did not seem to convene the power of Continuum.

Riddle Sideways: yes, tradition, but more …
Riddle Sideways: not sure how to put it
Riddle Sideways: tradition, although a really good word, does not nail it fully
Riddle Sideways: to stand in a place saying the same words that hundreds of generations have already said
Riddle Sideways: and will say for generations to come
Riddle Sideways: being just a link in that chain
Riddle Sideways: celebrating/rejoicing with parents over the birth of a child
Riddle Sideways: celebrating with bride and groom
Riddle Sideways: rejoicing/remembering all those that were parts of our livies once
Riddle Sideways: being joyious that the wheel of time has rounded another week
Avastu Maruti smiles
Avastu Maruti: this larger perspective, one in which the small sense of self is lost as a wave in the vast ocean
Avastu Maruti: joy is found in the absence of the self-contraction
Avastu Maruti: it is wonderful that you recognize that joy
Riddle Sideways: yes, renewing the feeling of being a little i in a chain of greater … wholeness
Riddle Sideways: time and space and …
Avastu Maruti: yes, even time and space are only facets of the totality
Avastu Maruti: Life, looking at itself, surrounded by itself, awed at the beauty
Riddle Sideways: spending much time on that totality, beauty, etc.
Riddle Sideways: however, this time
Riddle Sideways: the word continual, continuality (spelling failed)

Later, I would look up the word “continuum” and know how to spell it.  What I was going for here, but don’t think I got across was the awesome responsiblity of a tradition.  Having gone on for thousands of years, I MUST do my part and teach my children to do their parts or it might not continue.  To be the one the didn’t carry on.  To do my little part to make sure future generations have their chance too.

Riddle Sideways: within or around the ALL is and totality and Being
Riddle Sideways: is the continual-ness
Riddle Sideways: mine is to be what i must to continue it for the next
Avastu Maruti: it is as it is – when there is the sense of self, the contraction, the idea of controlling life, Joy seems to be obscured
Avastu Maruti: the totality, the wholeness, needs no help
Riddle Sideways: yet, there is the joy and awe to do a part in the continual turn of the wheels
Riddle Sideways: a fullfillness of purpose to contribute to the pushing of the cycles
Avastu Maruti: it is the idea of contribution which separates the whole
Avastu Maruti: Life takes care of itself
Avastu Maruti: the turning wheels are reflections in the totality itself
Riddle Sideways: there are fine points that have trouble with that
Riddle Sideways: there was the need for me to live to bear and raise children
Riddle Sideways: to teach what I could
Riddle Sideways: and launch them
Riddle Sideways: that could be looked upon as controling
Riddle Sideways: it is part of the continuim
Avastu Maruti: the wholeness is, prior to and includes the thoughts about trouble
Avastu Maruti: this living, bearing, raising children, teaching – all Life living itself
Avastu Maruti: contracted as the small self, we are separate from life
Avastu Maruti: yet we may recognize that this is a reflection in the mirror of consciousness itself
Avastu Maruti: the small self, the contraction of assumed control, dissolves into the whole, the totality
Avastu Maruti: and what is, remains
Avastu Maruti: perfectly arising
Riddle Sideways: thank you
Riddle Sideways: the small self raising life seems not to be separate from life
Riddle Sideways: would be the cycle itself
Avastu Maruti: yes – it is only so in thought
Avastu Maruti: yet thought is also Life
Avastu Maruti: a running commentary and conceptualization of what is

Please to excuse me gentle reader.  I have become whatever the keyboard equivalent of tongue-tied.

Riddle Sideways: those are correct… (words are failing again) the going forward is working
Riddle Sideways: it is the memorys, past that is ….
Riddle Sideways: not so part of what you say
Avastu Maruti: past (memory) and future (imagination) can only arise in the present moment
Avastu Maruti: we never leave this moment, not for one second
Avastu Maruti: the appearances of change which is attributed and measured as time is only a recognition of the whole of the container of now
Avastu Maruti: time is simply a way of thinking
Avastu Maruti: a feeling of movement due to memory and imagination
Avastu Maruti: and this small self is created in this swing back and forth
Riddle Sideways: 2 parts of what you write need more exploration
Riddle Sideways: the catch-22 of the now begots past and future.
Riddle Sideways: And feeling of now/time due to memory and imagination
Riddle Sideways: both supporting each
Avastu Maruti: entirely too complex and analytical, my friend
Avastu Maruti: it’s much simpler than that
Avastu Maruti: simply notice that you cannot have an experience in the past or the future
Riddle Sideways: I know, just having fun, mostly
Avastu Maruti: experiencing always is now
Avastu Maruti: and in that experiencing, even the “small self” is an experience
Avastu Maruti: even the “I” that experiences is a thought experienced
Riddle Sideways: my small self was experiencing what another small self was telling me about an ancestor that I had never met/experienced
Avastu Maruti: hahaha
Riddle Sideways: I think I have memories, therefore I … :)
Avastu Maruti: is this ancestor named Descartes?
Riddle Sideways: hehehe

Many sessions have been discussing time.  Here are some of Avastu’s thoughts on time.

Riddle Sideways: The other point you brought up was
Riddle Sideways: this “time is simply a way of thinking”
Riddle Sideways: there are so many ways of thinking about this time idea
Avastu Maruti: thinking about time is assuming its reality
Avastu Maruti: simply notice that you never move in time
Avastu Maruti: you are the container in which these changes seem to happen
Avastu Maruti: the container itself never moves
Riddle Sideways: that makes it much easier to substitute definitions of time
Riddle Sideways: container stays the same
Riddle Sideways: the changes are just different
Riddle Sideways: reflections of the shadows of 3 sticks
Riddle Sideways: sorry, am still stuck on something Pema wrote in a group email
Riddle Sideways: the thoughts of how the changes in the container
Riddle Sideways: are the time
Riddle Sideways: thoughts
Avastu Maruti: we might, if we’re open and honest, see that everything we know is an experience
Avastu Maruti: the only way we know anything is through experiencing of it
Avastu Maruti: so the only way we know the small self is as an experience
Avastu Maruti: we experience the small self, the contraction
Avastu Maruti: the idea of “me” is an experience
Avastu Maruti: can you find the ultimate experiencer?
Riddle Sideways: very great question
Riddle Sideways: was stuck on the piling of many experiences upon each other
Riddle Sideways: the learning of new experiences from other experiences
Riddle Sideways: once again brings in “previous” and memory
Avastu Maruti: the ultimate experiencer can only be that “container” or that “space” in which these changes come and go
Avastu Maruti: that ultimate experiencer itself is not an experience
Avastu Maruti: it is experiencing itself, the activity of knowing
Avastu Maruti: vast and timeless awareness
Riddle Sideways: a knowing in an all knowing, within an all is known?
Avastu Maruti: the knower and the known are relative subject and object, creations in thought/concept
Avastu Maruti: the knowing is primary, the substratum of all experience
Avastu Maruti: the screen on which the movie of now is playing

the woodwinds make their first mention of “screen” and “movie”.  The entire string section introduces the major “Being” theme.

Riddle Sideways: and Being would be the container or the experiencer?
Avastu Maruti: Being is another word, a pointer to THAT which you are
Avastu Maruti: the “space” in which the relative comes and goes
Avastu Maruti: Being, Oneness, God, Self
Avastu Maruti: all labels for that which cannot be described or contained by a word
Avastu Maruti: yet is evident and intimately known
Avastu Maruti: closer than your own face
Avastu Maruti: simplicity itself
Riddle Sideways: and the contridictons flow away
Avastu Maruti: contradictions appear and disappear while you remain before, during and after
Avastu Maruti: perfect and totally free

Avastu and I think very much alike and agree on so much that it is hard to keep conversation going.  The only traction I find is to explore the edges of chaos and complexity against his reduction and simplicity.

In the next section the bolding is added by me.

Riddle Sideways: there is the one, all, being, G-d, self, construct
Riddle Sideways: and all is good
Riddle Sideways: then there is a split to a digital world
Riddle Sideways: be it subject/verb
Riddle Sideways: or you/me
Avastu Maruti: yes
Riddle Sideways: and there becomes a digital computer built of bits, bytes, teraflops
Avastu Maruti: hahaha
Riddle Sideways: we simplify to conceptualizing about just the one and/or the first digital split
Avastu Maruti: yes!
Riddle Sideways: but there be billions and billions (thank you Carl Sagen)
Riddle Sideways: of bits flipping all the construct
Avastu Maruti: the appearance is a million billion reference points
Avastu Maruti: relativity is necessary for the world to appear
Avastu Maruti: yet it is never separated from the totality itself
Avastu Maruti: like light through a prism
Riddle Sideways: Being’s presentation has appearance
Avastu Maruti: Consciousness is the prism
Riddle Sideways: a million billion pixels
Riddle Sideways: on the big screen of … [life?]
Avastu Maruti: hahaha
Avastu Maruti: yes!
Riddle Sideways: the little “i” appreciates the presence
Riddle Sideways: of the appearance
Avastu Maruti: yes, of course
Avastu Maruti: the appearance is a celebration of Life
Riddle Sideways: full circle
Avastu Maruti: yet when identified as a small separated part, only a “pixel”, then suffering comes
Avastu Maruti: the trouble seems to start with the primary thought “I AM”
Avastu Maruti: the first separation from the totality
calhau0 Karu: hi
Avastu Maruti: then it is abstracted into I AM this and that

Calhau0, a new comer, appears right on the table.  I am so engrossed in the conversation that I forgot my manners, guardian position and that I needed to go awhile back.

Riddle Sideways: Hi Calhauo
Avastu Maruti: hello my friend
Riddle Sideways: the little pixel that was
calhau0 Karu: are you in a midle of something
Riddle Sideways: we are about done, calhauo
Riddle Sideways: I need to go, but
Riddle Sideways: this is a group that meets here
Riddle Sideways: every 6 hours

Jerked back to trying to be a good host, I miss this next sentence until reading it now.

calhau0 Karu: can one of you explain me how can i get a job?
Riddle Sideways: called “Play as Being”
Avastu Maruti: hahaha!
calhau0 Karu: i’m new arround here
Riddle Sideways: you can read more at playasbeing.org
Riddle Sideways: there are good summaries
Riddle Sideways: it is a huge wiki of what we chat here
Riddle Sideways: hmmmm, I can’t find the postcard to pass to you
calhau0 Karu: so bye then
Avastu Maruti: good bye my friend
Riddle Sideways: yes, very sorry I need to leave too
Avastu Maruti: love to you my friends
Riddle Sideways: RL calling on the phone


Detox

That night, at 1 am, I, Pema, spent some time by myself in the pavilion, until Quel appeared.

Quel Karillion: Hello Pema.
Pema Pera: Hi Quel, how are you?
Quel Karillion: I’m good, you?
Pema Pera: I’m fine!
Pema Pera: I’m still in Japan for a few days, so it is 5 pm here, locally
Pema Pera: I’ve seen that you’ve come to our Play as Being group a few times, from the chat logs, but haven’t met you before, I believe
Pema Pera: nice to meet in person, or at least “in avatar: :-)
Quel Karillion: nope, first meeting with this avatar :)
Pema Pera: AH!
Pema Pera pins are dropping
Pema Pera: metta!
Pema Pera: as your friend would say
Quel Karillion: Yes :)
Pema Pera: :-)

It all fell into place . . . .

Quel Karillion: it’ll be a long flight :)
Pema Pera: back to the US you mean?
Quel Karillion: To US anyhow ;)
Pema Pera: yes, from any direction :-)
Pema Pera: So, given that you’re still relatively new to PaB :-), what are your impressions so far? =^+^=
Quel Karillion: It’s an interesting group :)
Pema Pera: perhaps you read on the wiki, three sessions earlier, how I was playing the devil’s advocate with respect to PaB
Quel Karillion: Yes, I just read that posting before logging in.
Pema Pera: what do you think about all that?
Quel Karillion comes up blank somehow.
Quel Karillion: It’s an interesting approach to ponder but … somehow can’t say much about it.

At this point in the conversation, after a brief silence, a piece of AI took up the slack.

PaB Listener Master: I’ve been touched by someone I don’t recognize.
Pema Pera: :-)
Quel Karillion: perhaps try touching the recorder?
Quel Karillion: that red cone
Pema Pera: words are tricky . . . .
Pema Pera: I see a black cone . . .
Pema Pera: in the middle of the table?
Quel Karillion: small red cone with 10896 above it
Pema Pera: or the small red one?
Pema Pera: aha
PaB Listener Master: I’ve been touched by a PaB guardian.
Pema Pera: Ah, it asks me what it should do
Pema Pera: start/cancel/ignore
Pema Pera: Wol’s Listener Master
Pema Pera: great!
Pema Pera: Reminds me of “His Master’s Voice”
Quel Karillion grins.
Pema Pera: (old record company with picture of dog recognizing voice of master on record player)
Quel Karillion: Ah, fun idea :)
Quel Karillion: (you could try choosing the start, perhaps, even though it’s late)
PaB Listener Master: I’ve been touched by a PaB guardian.
PaB Listener Master: Recording has started!
Pema Pera: okay, I started it.
Pema Pera: Should it have recognized me as a guardian?
Quel Karillion: I can give you the URL
Quel Karillion: yes
Pema Pera: I wear the tag “cultivator” rather than Pab guardian
Pema Pera: is that the problem?
Quel Karillion: it’s the same group
Pema Pera: I created that since I like the word “cultivator” — that was before there were “guardians” — we had the group for the PaB land management, and “cultivator” had a nice double meaning, cultivating the land and PaB
Pema Pera: so that’s okay to wear — but why did it then not recognize me, you think?

More tech talk.

Quel Karillion: but it did?
Quel Karillion: it didn’t rez the listeners though … oh well, Wol’s got more work to do :)
Pema Pera: I am glad that he and you are putting so much time in it, thank you very much!
Pema Pera: I saw the chat of last week with Adelene — is she working with you and Wol too?
Quel Karillion: Yes, I’m not sure exactly how Wol and Adelene are dividing the work but they’re both working on the LSL part
Pema Pera: great! So is it the three of you then, or are others involved?
Quel Karillion: which seems to be the more complex part of the system… at least as far as recording is concerned
Pema Pera: so the three of you are currently the whole task force?
Quel Karillion: Yes, looks like no-one else is doing things.
Quel Karillion: at least I haven’t heard of anyone else :)
Pema Pera: For joint code writing, three may be almost the maximum to work well . . .
Quel Karillion: perhaps, yes
Pema Pera: unless you are skilled in breaking up things into modular parts
Pema Pera: but hard to do that in an exploration phase
Quel Karillion: although, it’s one codebase for me and Wol and Adelene are working on another
Quel Karillion: modularized by force :)
Pema Pera: :-)
Quel Karillion: my part is PHP … although that is not my first pick if I could choose freely.
Pema Pera: ah!
Pema Pera: you just happen to know more about it that the others?
Quel Karillion: Wol doesn’t know it she says and I haven’t asked Adelene.
Pema Pera: When it’s working, I hope that Wol will get a kind of lecture or presentation about it
Pema Pera: the Kira Cafe would be a perfect place to do so
Pema Pera: I for one would love to learn about the logic
Quel Karillion: Hi Umbriel :)
Pema Pera: Hi Umbriel!
Quel Karillion: not much logic in my part so far :)
Umbriel Levenque: Peace and Love
Pema Pera: metta.
Umbriel Levenque: :-)
Pema Pera: :)

Umbriel joined us, which reminded me of our earlier session, almost a day ago.

Pema Pera: Ah, I just got another idea, related to the session at 7 am yesterday, 3 sessions ago
Pema Pera: where you were present too, Umbriel
Pema Pera: and me playing the devils advocate
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
Umbriel Levenque: yes I was. continuing I suppose?
Pema Pera: (I just put it up on the wiki, under http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/2008/09/2008.09.29_07%3a00_-_What_is_this_Being%3f
Umbriel Levenque: reading
Pema Pera: not yet, but we could now
Pema Pera: or we could talk about it, many options!
Umbriel Levenque: :-) yes many options
Umbriel Levenque: please continue what you two were discussing before I joined in (reading the log atm)
Pema Pera: I just got this idea that perhaps the most important question would not be “what have you learned about Being” or even “about yourself” as such but rather something like – how has your belief in normal reality changed?
Pema Pera: (we were doing tech talk)
Pema Pera: So instead of taking “Being” or whatever type of practice as a “belief” take the way we ordinarily look at the world as a “belief”
Umbriel Levenque: yes it’s a good question Pema
Pema Pera: and ask whether our “belief” in that strange sect called “ordinary reality believers” has changed
Pema Pera: Perhaps PaB is a kind of detox operation
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
Quel Karillion: detox :)
Umbriel Levenque: yes…
Pema Pera: you know, there are groups dedicated to get people OUT of sects
Umbriel Levenque: an emergency by-pass, a friend called it also
Pema Pera: rescuing them from the tentacles of greedy sect members
Pema Pera: ah, yes nice
Pema Pera: so if we start from what IS, then the ordinary mind set is a rather dangerous, pernicious kind of sect attitude
Pema Pera: so can PaB help us to escape?
Quel Karillion: well, you could kind of think the ordinary mind as a sect that encompasses almost all humans.
Pema Pera: sure, but quantity does not guarantee anything about quality
Pema Pera: they can all be equally mistaken . . . .
Quel Karillion: oh, that’s not what I’m pointing at :)
Umbriel Levenque: wonder ‘escape’ is quite a thing I’m looking for…
Pema Pera: you mean it’s contagious :-)
Pema Pera: <= Fael
Quel Karillion: well, that too but …
Pema Pera: not escape from where we are, but from where we are asked to think we are, if you see what I mean, Umbriel
Quel Karillion: I was mostly trying to point out that it’s a sect but so widespread it’s not recognised as one.
Pema Pera: escape from ordinary ideas
Pema Pera: ah, yes, sure, Quel, certainly!
Quel Karillion: too big :)
Quel Karillion: even incohesive :)
Pema Pera: So we can play Being’s advocate, as Devil’s advocate against almost anyone’s “sane” mindset
Quel Karillion: kind of an antisect in some ways

Interesting, PaB as an antisect . . .

Umbriel Levenque wants to be aware of ‘all’ ideas, including ordinary ones
Pema Pera: oh sure, aware of ideas is important, being carried away by them as having the only truth is what makes a sect so dangerous
Umbriel Levenque: yes
Quel Karillion: but that only truth part is quite common, yes.
Umbriel Levenque: only truth but many paths
Pema Pera associating . . . antisect . . . insect . . insecticides . . . antisecticide . . . PaB?

I later realized that I should have written “secticide”, not antisecticide, oh well.

Quel Karillion: now that I think of it, that’s still what tends to put me off from christianity as an organisation.
Umbriel Levenque: :D
Pema Pera: yes, a sect can be characterized as claiming that they have the only path to the truth
Pema Pera: instead of a path to the only truth — which would be much healthier and realistic
Faenik: なるほど^^
Umbriel Levenque: yes
Quel Karillion: Yes… Buddhism is quite nice in that respect :)
Pema Pera: so in that sense, the way many scientists look at science is making science into a sect!
Pema Pera: scientism
Quel Karillion: yes…
Quel Karillion has seen people saying science as a whole is a religion.
Umbriel Levenque: perhaps years and years later, science as now could be looked at as a religion… who can tell
Pema Pera: you know, it would be really interesting, as a little PaB project, to look up on the internet a few good examples of antisecticides, detox operations, and see whether their approach mirrors that of PaB to some extent . . . .
Quel Karillion: perhaps :)
Umbriel Levenque: :-)
Pema Pera: btw, I should go over to the Kira campus. Would you be interested to have a look?
Pema Pera: I have to check something there.
Umbriel Levenque: sure
Quel Karillion will have to go in about 15 minutes but until then…
Pema Pera: let me go over and tp you both
Umbriel Levenque: (need to go out in 10 but will come)

I teleported over to the Kira Cafe.

Pema Pera: Here is the bar area, for the language evenings . . . .
Pema Pera: in one corner, but you see the whole place is BIG
Pema Pera: we can have meetings with 100 avatars, if the sim allows
Umbriel Levenque: nice interior
Pema Pera: all Storm’s work
Quel Karillion: Yes, looks nice :)
Faenik: why not?
Pema Pera: so you see the bar is quite far from the center, so the people speaking Dutch, Finnish, whatever, would bother or be bother by the Anglofiles :-)
Umbriel Levenque: clearly european :-)
Umbriel Levenque: fountain… possibly not so

I went up the stairs to the second floor, a kind of open gallery, and Umbriel and Quel followed me.

Pema Pera: so if someone gives a lecture, in front of the fire place,
Quel Karillion: looks a bit unfinished here still :)
Pema Pera: avatars can stay within 20 meters on both floors to listen
Pema Pera: hehe, sure
Pema Pera: work in progress
Umbriel Levenque: good idea that
Quel Karillion: Yes, the idea could perhaps use even more floor. 100 people might get crowded on just 2 ;)
Pema Pera: well, 70 is probably a limit for a sim to carry comfortable . . . .
Quel Karillion: Yes, likely
Quel Karillion: until the performance gets better.
Quel Karillion: hopefully Mono will help with that
Pema Pera: we’ll see. We do intend for the Kira Cafe to become a kind of Science Hub for Second Life
Pema Pera: yes
Quel Karillion: it’s already in the server
Pema Pera: with talks about what happens science-wise in SL
Pema Pera: so much broader than PaB
Pema Pera: but open to “other ways of knowing” as we call it
Pema Pera: PaB is like wodka, this more like beer
Quel Karillion grins.
Umbriel Levenque: :-)
Pema Pera: both respectful to the openness of science and the human context thereof
Pema Pera: PaB starting from the Being end
Pema Pera: Kira Cafe starting from the science end
Umbriel Levenque: nice
Quel Karillion: :)

The conversation turned back to the Kira Language Bar.

Quel Karillion wonders if that native language conversation takes off much.
Pema Pera: we’ll have to see
Pema Pera: I at least would be happy to speak my own language occasionally, for a change
Umbriel Levenque: :-)
Pema Pera: and doing so with just one other person present could be at least as interesting as with ten or twenty
Quel Karillion: yes, depends on the person really :)
Pema Pera: so no program, no recording, no plans or goals
Umbriel Levenque: would be interesting to listen in for me
Pema Pera: like a Cafe really!
Pema Pera: sure, anyone is welcome
Umbriel Levenque: yes
Pema Pera: could act as language lessons
Quel Karillion: sort of, yes :)
Pema Pera: like, tomorrow I’m going to give a talk about Kira in a Tokyo Bar, in Japanese
Umbriel Levenque: nice
Pema Pera: ah, Quel, something tells me you might be able to read the announcement, hehehe
Pema Pera: just a sec
Quel Karillion smiles.
Pema Pera: http://snbar.ameblo.jp
Pema Pera: Kira 研究所について
Pema Pera: halfway down the page
Umbriel Levenque: gotta run. thanks for bringing me over Pema
Quel Karillion: See you later Umbriel :)
Umbriel Levenque: good night
Pema Pera: c u Umbriel!
Umbriel Levenque: see you later Quel

Umbriel departed, and we turned from languages to time zones.

Pema Pera: so I am the ゲスト tomorrow :)
Pema Pera: so I expect that we get a well populated Japanese evening in the Kira Cafe, starting next week!
Pema Pera: if I’m doing an even half-way decent job advertising
Quel Karillion: sounds likely, yes :)
Pema Pera: let’s check the times. I am shooting for 8 pm local time
Pema Pera: so that is 7 am EDT
Pema Pera: must be 3 pm for you, right?
Pema Pera: or 2 pm?
Pema Pera: 1 pm in Amsterdam and Paris, say
Quel Karillion: 3pm sounds good
Pema Pera: 4 am SLT
Quel Karillion: yep.
Pema Pera: you are on Moscow time?
Quel Karillion: oh, about Saturday log, I’ll put something on the wiki but … can’t really put any log about it. Mostly voice between me and Gaya at first and then something we were asked to leave out.
Quel Karillion: not sure about moscow time :)
Pema Pera: Moscow is two hours away from Paris, so must be the same as you, right?
Quel Karillion: but at the moment 8pm in japan is 3pm in Finland …
Pema Pera: As for Saturday, well you can just make a short story about it, whatever could fit
Quel Karillion: not sure if DST makes a difference
Quel Karillion: I’ll also be putting up Sunday 1AM
Quel Karillion: well, a lot of that log is available from the autologging system too :)
Quel Karillion: although, better leave the url out
Quel Karillion: those are unedited

Back to tech talk.

Pema Pera: ah!
Pema Pera: okay, I’ll edit it out
Pema Pera: but it is dangerous to have it there if search engines find it
Pema Pera: then effectively it will be published . . . .
Quel Karillion: they should only find it if it’s linked from other pages.
Pema Pera: but how do you make sure that nobody links to that page?
Pema Pera: It takes only one person somewhere . . . who then forgets . . . but search robots won’t forget
Quel Karillion: difficult, yes.
Quel Karillion: lets see, I could setup robots.txt
Pema Pera: not a viable long-term solution perhaps? Hard to say what is best
Quel Karillion: necessary for testing.
Pema Pera: hey, here is an idea!!!
Quel Karillion: for the moment, this thing is running from a server that my work is paying for though.
Pema Pera: How about have the autologging system replacing each avatar name by a number and keeping a data base with the keys, like a kind of hash table
Pema Pera: then publishing the raw stuff would be okay, right?
Pema Pera: as long as you don’t publish the hash table
Quel Karillion: it already keeps the keys and uses them to identify people
Pema Pera: which will be used for getting it on the wiki
Quel Karillion: doesn’t look at the name for that
Pema Pera: Ah, I see.
Quel Karillion: but does save the name
Quel Karillion: at the moment uses that for the view.php
Quel Karillion: and also has database integer ID column for eah
Quel Karillion: each
Quel Karillion: so completely unrelated number for each person is available as well
Pema Pera: great!
Quel Karillion: ok, try looking at it again now
Quel Karillion: of course, when people talk about others, that’s visible
Pema Pera: yes, but that is almost always a first name, not the whole name, which doesn’t really identify the person generally
Pema Pera: well, unless you have a first name like Corvuscorva
Pema Pera: but even that becomes Corvi :)
Pema Pera: so okay :-)
Quel Karillion: ok, I also added robots.txt that disallows spidering at all.
Quel Karillion: so at least major search engines won’t index it now even if people link to it
Pema Pera: great!
Pema Pera: well, I should get going here, checking something out
Pema Pera: good seeing you (sort-of again :-)
Quel Karillion: ah, yes, I’m a bit later from my plan too :P
Quel Karillion: See you later :)
Pema Pera: :)


A Relaxing Evening

Adelene was the guardian that evening, standing in for Threedee. She sent me, Pema, the following chatlog, which I put up on the wiki. The title is my choice.

Adelene Dawner: oh, Hi Steve
stevenaia Michinaga: evening, a relaxing evening, I see
Adelene Dawner grins.
Adelene Dawner: I’m actually putting together my Livejournal on the other screen – I may start using it again.
stevenaia Michinaga: is it a blog?
Adelene Dawner: yup
stevenaia Michinaga: would love to read it
stevenaia Michinaga: is there a link?
stevenaia Michinaga: that way we can both concentrate on you…grin
Adelene Dawner: There’s only one entry right now, but it’s at http://angelshelper81.livejournal.com
stevenaia Michinaga: thanks, I have a questions with your assumption, since I know only a bit about eastern thought, but I thought suffering was a comonant of Buddism, as opposed the good vs evil theme of your discussion
Adelene Dawner: Yes – the two traditions assign different levels of importance to those things. Buddhism seems to take the tone of “yes, we’re all good, let’s move on to more useful things.”
Adelene Dawner: (Which I very much agree with. ^.^)
stevenaia Michinaga: if laws created are for the purpose of limitied evil, then I supposed you are correct regarding the jewish religion as well
stevenaia Michinaga: bit I agree with you on the inherent good possessd but us all
Adelene Dawner: Ooo, I hadn’t thought of that angle… and it makes *so* much sense.
stevenaia Michinaga: well to day is my day to think about it…smile
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Adelene Dawner: Eastern traditions have a lot of faith in our ability to figure right and wrong out for ourselves – as is propper, in my mind – which leads *away* from having set, dogmatic rules. Abrahamic religion leads in the opposite direction.
Adelene Dawner: No wonder I like the eastern traditions so much. :D
stevenaia Michinaga: Seems the west requires subserviance to another power, god or the law in order to live “properly”, not sure if the porblem is the laws or the people…
Adelene Dawner: Seems to me like a result of answering the good/evil question incorrectly. If people are fundamentally good, but the world is not perfect… well, there are more things in the world than just ‘people’, and maybe we just don’t *understand* what perfection is. But if people are fundamentally evil, and the world isn’t absolutely horrible, there has to be some ‘big good thing’ balancing out all the evil, hm?
stevenaia Michinaga: On a side note……how do you type so much in one little window so clearly, I ahve major editing issues when I can;t see all the text….smile
Adelene Dawner: I stretch it out longways so I can see as much as possible, and I move back and forth if I still run over and need to check something.
stevenaia Michinaga: right, I should have figured that one out
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Adelene Dawner: ^.^


If They Knew Better, They’d Do Better.

Stim was the guardian that afternoon. He sent me, Pema, the chat log, which I put up. I also choose a title.

Adams Rubble: Hello Corvi :)\
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hiya, Adams!
Adams Rubble: Hello Wol :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: adams..Hi Wol..where does one send new people to this circle..isn’t ther a notecard?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: or just use the link.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: ?
Corvuscorva Nightfire waits for Wol to rez
Wol Euler: um, htere will be a notecard-giver as soon as I or someone else builds one.
Wol Euler: I can give it to you if you like,
Corvuscorva Nightfire accepted your inventory offer.
Wol Euler: for you to distribute.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: thanks Adams..
Corvuscorva Nightfire grins at Wol..
Adams Rubble: That’s one I made up. It’s a bit old
Corvuscorva Nightfire: is this one ok?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I’m going to send it to a friend.
Adams Rubble: I still give it out
PaB Listener Master: I’ve been touched by a PaB guardian.

PaB Listener Master: Recording has started!
Adams Rubble: Now we have to watch what we say :)
Adams Rubble: hehe
Wol Euler: naaah
Wol Euler: well, no more than usual.
Davmar Hykova: hello
Adams Rubble: Hello Davmar :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hiya Dav.
Davmar Hykova: hi Adams
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Adams. Dav came to the last one.
Davmar Hykova: Hello Corvi
Davmar Hykova: Hello Wol
Adams Rubble: Yes, I remember
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I mean..Dav came with me last time I came.
Wol Euler: hello davmar
Adams Rubble: I am a bit out of it today and don;t have anything to start things off :)
Adams Rubble: Hello Adelene :)
Wol Euler: hello adelene
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hello, Adelene.
Adelene Dawner: hi guys :)
Davmar Hykova: Hello Adelene
Adelene Dawner: I should be working but I noticed Adams being on…
Wol Euler: :-)
Adams Rubble should be working too :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: mmm
Wol Euler should be in bed soon.
Adelene Dawner: I’ve had some rather frustrating run-ins with Christians in the last few days and figured that reminding myself that they’re not all pains in the butt would be a good thing ^.^
Corvuscorva Nightfire: mm
Wol Euler: lol
Adams Rubble: hehe
Adams Rubble just uses Christian metaphors :)
Adams Rubble: Hello Stim :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: hiya stim!
Wol Euler: hello stim
Adelene Dawner: Hi Stim :)
Davmar Hykova: Hi Stim
Stim Morane: Hello! Sorry I’m late!

Adams Rubble: Hello Stim :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: hiya stim!
Wol Euler: hello stim
Adelene Dawner: Hi Stim :)
Davmar Hykova: Hi Stim
Stim Morane: Hello! Sorry I’m late!
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Late/
Stim Morane: I lost track of time.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: ??
Wol Euler: time is relative ;-)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: time?
Corvuscorva Nightfire snorts.
Adelene Dawner giggles.

Stim Morane: Have I stepped into the wrong meeting?
Stim Morane: :)
Wol Euler: heheheheheh
Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs..
Stim Morane: I can leave again …
Corvuscorva Nightfire: won’t help.
Wol Euler: nonono.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: we’ll be just as silly when you return.
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Wol Euler: Bring us to order. Instill discipline in the ranks.
Adelene Dawner: pffffffft ^.^
Stim Morane: I’m much too lazy to qualify for that job.
Stim Morane: Let’s stay on the silly street
Corvuscorva Nightfire grins.
Adams Rubble gave you 2008_09_29 so far.
Wol Euler hums the “Sesame Street” theme

Adelene Dawner: I did have something of a topic, actually… though I’m not sure if I want to bring it up with Stim here. My head’s still spinny from last time.
Stim Morane: :(
Adelene Dawner: It’s a communication issue, Stim, nothing about the topics being discussed – we’ll get that resolved eventually if we talk enough, I’m sure.
Adelene Dawner: …anyway, topic…
Adelene Dawner: The Christian concept of ‘sin’ doesn’t appear to be very closely related to the concepts we’ve talked about of ‘right/wrong action’. Given that, what does the concept mean (can we describe it better) and is it relevant to anything we do or should talk about?
Adams Rubble prefers the Buddhist approach
Adelene Dawner: Me, too, Adams.

Stim Morane: How did this one pop up for you Adelene?
Adelene Dawner: I work in a nursing home. We have bible study groups come in. The last one treated me to a lecture on how I’m going to hell because I was unwilling to participate in their activity… which is fine, but I’d like to have a better explanation of why I think they’re on the wrong track than ‘that’s not what I believe, thanks’.
Wol Euler: lol
Wol Euler: laughing at them, not you.
Stim Morane: Did the person literally say that to you?
Adelene Dawner: Oh, yes.
Davmar Hykova: sadly religeous zealots play this card all the time
Adelene Dawner: 10 minnute lecture in front of the residents. I’m rather thankful that a few of the residents who could’ve been there weren’t.
Davmar Hykova: because they know that ultimately you cannot prove 100% that there is no god
Adelene Dawner: (And if it happens again, I’ll be dealing with it from a harassment-at-work angle.)
Wol Euler: damned right
Davmar Hykova: just like they cant prove there is
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods to Adelen.

Stim Morane: perhaps the “keeper” point in this otherwise outrageous “hell” angle is the concern for acting well, and the observation that when we go against our better judgment, we tend to make and also experience trouble, suffering.
Stim Morane: This part is subject to observation.
Stim Morane: The rest …
Adelene Dawner: say more about ‘keeper’, Stim?
Stim Morane: I mean, the part that is worth keeping or respecting.
Adelene Dawner: …oh, nevermind.
Adelene Dawner does not parse language in the same way that Stim uses it, but re-reading helps sometimes.
Stim Morane: I am not sure why people want to trade in their own ability to learn, and replace it with the view you were exposed to.
Adams Rubble is a bit surprised that management would allow an outside group come in and interfere with their employees
Adams Rubble: Sorry, I have to leave and wanted to leave a little bit of a contribution to the discussion
Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles at Adams..bye….
Wol Euler: awww, bye adams. take care.
Stim Morane: Bye, Adams!
Adelene Dawner: Boss doesn’t know that the interference happened, yet. They’re supposed to be here for the residents (who have the right to leave any activity they’re not comfortable with), not for me (who can’t leave).
Wol Euler: huh
Adelene Dawner: cya Adams
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Adams Rubble: I wonder if it might help to ask management’s advice then

Stim Morane: One question I do have for you, Adelene, is whether any of their claim actually “stuck” with you on some level? Did it leave you with any doubts?
Davmar Hykova: by Adams
Adams Rubble: bye then
Adelene Dawner: I don’t believe in the Christian mythos – it doesn’t make sense to me. I do wonder why so many people do believe in it and how it’s stuck around so long if it’s not in some sense true or at least useful, so I keep picking at it from that angle.
Stim Morane: That is another angle on my question. It may have stuck around because it fits with the child mind level.
Stim Morane: And everyone retains some features of that mind, to some degree.
Davmar Hykova: I think its very well explained in the essay by Karl Marx titled “Religeon – Opium of the people”
Adelene Dawner shrugs.
Davmar Hykova: Life was so awful for people in years gone by the needed something to believe in such as redeption in heaven to make their regular lives bearable

Adelene Dawner: I’ve never really bought into that whole ‘sinner by nature’ concept, at all. I have no idea why not. That seems to be the antithesis of the concept I’ve come across in Zen and Buddhist teachings of ‘trust your basic goodness’, which *does* make absolute sense.
Wol Euler nods
Corvuscorva Nightfire: huh…the other part of being a sinner by nature…is the cared for by jesus and the father god.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: though I have to admit I like the trust your basic goodness idea better.
Adelene Dawner: ^.^ @ Corvi
Stim Morane: The Zen view, or Buddhist view, as it played out in China, playout AGAINST the backdrop of millenia of worring about this issue. Chinese from the earliest times worried about whether human beings were “fundamentally” tainted or evil, vs fundamentally good in some sense. The latter view won out, mostly because the experiential, “check for yourself” technology came in with the contemplative traditions.
Wol Euler: people who think of themselves as “good” don’t need to buy salvation, which is the Abrahamic religions’ business plan.
Stim Morane: I.e., it went from idle speculation or dogma to something you could actually investigate.
Adelene Dawner: *YES*, Wol.

Adelene Dawner: But I need a way of communicating that to people who fundamentally believe that I-personally, and everyone-personally, am/are fundamentally evil. Which may be impossible.
Wol Euler: … or just let them continue in their error?
Stim Morane: At the monastery here in Berkeley, where I teach, some monks often participate in “inter-faith” conferences. And they run into this kind of view all the time.
Stim Morane: They found that there was no way to argue their way to clear consensus and reconciliation.
Adelene Dawner: Hard when they’re getting in my face and explicitly asking why I’m taking the path that I am. I like to be truthful and accurate.
Wol Euler: I can’t see that anyone who is involved in christianity to the point that they would be part of such a mission, would be open to hearing that their life’s work and beliefs are not absolutely true.
Stim Morane: They also found that just being compassionate to the hell-pushers tended to win them over.
Wol Euler: agreed, adelene.
Wol Euler: huh
Adelene Dawner: That’s my general game plan, Stim.
Wol Euler: :-)
Stim Morane: I admit I haven’t tried it.

{This last was a joke.}

Adelene Dawner: This may be a special case though.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: It does work.
Adelene Dawner: It actually does work very well most of the time.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I am in the bible belt..an atheist.
Wol Euler: o.O
Wol Euler: and they let you touch their food?!
Stim Morane: The monks told me it tended to confuse the other guys.
Adelene Dawner: It challenges a basic assumption of the hell-pushers in a fundamental way – the idea that ‘unsaved’ people can’t do good.
Davmar Hykova: are you Corvi, that must be difficult
Corvuscorva Nightfire: my friends growing up were evangalists..
Stim Morane: I see.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Wol Euler: aaaah
Corvuscorva Nightfire: it does indeed.
Adelene Dawner: Which is very fun to watch ^.^
Stim Morane: Oh you’re so evil, Adelene!
Wol Euler chuckles
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Corvuscorva Nightfire giggles.

Adelene Dawner: (Not buying into the good/evil dichotomy has its upsides ^.^)
Stim Morane: :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire thinks about this..
Davmar Hykova: I have to go bye everybody
Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye, Dav.
Adelene Dawner: cya, Dav
Corvuscorva Nightfire: see you soon.
Stim Morane: Bye Davmar
Wol Euler: bye davmar, thanks for coming.
Adelene Dawner: So yes, just being compassionate around/to them is very useful. But when they’re in my face asking questions, what works best? I defaulted to ‘trying not to literally laugh at them’ last time, which was not optimal, I’m sure, since I’m very bad at hiding things like that.
Wol Euler chuckles
Corvuscorva Nightfire bursts out laughing.
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I usually use a version of my not interested in the phone offer line.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: something like..Thank you for your concern, but I am not interested.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: unless I’m willing to engage.
Wol Euler: I go into tape-recorder mode usualy: “my fate is none of your business, but thank you for asking.”
Stim Morane: Some things don’t have neat solutions.
Adelene Dawner: mm. The ‘click’ part of that is important though. In this case I can’t just walk away.
Stim Morane: It’s sad.
Stim Morane: But note that it is they who have created these problems.
Adelene Dawner: (And as much as I talk about calling harassment – the chances of my actually doing that are surprisingly slim…)
Stim Morane: We sometimes blame ourselves somehow.

Wol Euler: ah, you could say “stop that you are upsetting my patients.” They would have to back down then…
Adelene Dawner: No blame, Stim. This isn’t my fault nor really theirs – if they knew better, they’d do better. But it still needs to be handled and this is the only body I have to do it with.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: or…I can’t really talk about religion at work.
Adelene Dawner: good idea, Corvus. ^.^
Stim Morane: I meant “subconscious” blame.
Adelene Dawner chuckles. “None of that, either.”
Stim Morane: :)
Adelene Dawner: So basically it sounds like taking a “this discussion can’t happen in this context” tone is the best option. I was hoping for a more direct one… but I think you’re right, the fundamental issue here is a tough one to be pithy about. (I will try, tho!)
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: It can’t happen easily n that context.
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Corvuscorva Nightfire: this comes up in my job often, actually.
Stim Morane: Yes
Corvuscorva Nightfire: if the person continues to engage me…I am often incredibly honest with them….once we have a relationship.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: but it is tricky.
Adelene Dawner: Actually… “I see no reason to believe your assertation that I’m a sinner by nature” is pretty pithy. Needs better words perhaps.
Wol Euler: problem is, it would spur them on to explain it to you.
Stim Morane: You could print out a note card …
Corvuscorva Nightfire: only works for me when I have built a relationship with the person, first.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: hahahha
Adelene Dawner: I’ve considered using writing, Stim, if this is an ongoing issue.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: and it does spur conversation.

Stim Morane: This doesn’t come up for me very often because once they learn that I’m a Buddhist, they leave.
Stim Morane: :)
Adelene Dawner grins. “Does that actually *work*? Maybe I should try it.”
Wol Euler: (brb, kitchen duty)
Stim Morane: Yes.
Stim Morane: They’ve been told some pretty strange things about Buddhism, so it acts as a very effective deterrent.
Adelene Dawner: ahhhh
Stim Morane: I’ve had taxi drivers consider putting me out of the car in the middle of t he freeway.
Adelene Dawner: Oh, my.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: really?
Adelene Dawner: Dare I ask why?
Stim Morane: they wanted to convert me, then realized I was beyond saving.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: ahahhha
Adelene Dawner adds her taxi company to the list of things she’s greatful for…
Stim Morane: But it’s the contagion factor that really gets rid of them.
Stim Morane: they’re afraid of picking up something …
Adelene Dawner: :D
Stim Morane: Anyway, I’ll return to my compassion angle. Forget the rest of what I said.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: thy already picked you up..or you wouldn’t be in the taxi..
Corvuscorva Nightfire: too late
Adelene Dawner: Actually, those things can be added to the compassion angle, without diluting it at all… though the compassion angle thing might eventually dilute Buddhism’s useful ‘weird’ reputation.
Adelene Dawner: ‘actions speak louder than words’
Wol Euler: back

Stim Morane: The basic point is that they started by approaching you, or me, etc without caring at all about a direct human contact.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Stim Morane: Once that contact is actually established, they have to look again, with fresh vision.
Adelene Dawner: Good point Stim.
Stim Morane: Being confrontational, as they were, is quite different from really seeing you.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nodsnods.
Adelene Dawner: very true
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I can even think of times when Buddhists have doen the same.
Stim Morane: Exactly! IT’s a human failing.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Stim Morane: We tend to take short cuts.
Stim Morane: This is part of what should motivate our compassion.
Adelene Dawner: relevant concept: heuristics
Stim Morane: Yes
Adelene Dawner does not like, and tries not to use, heuristics. But they’re necessary. The world’s just too complicated otherwise.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Heuristics?
Corvuscorva Nightfire goes to wiki
Adelene Dawner: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heuristics (for the log)
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: got it.

Stim Morane: Sad but true. But when we can see their limitations, and the advantages of a more open and direct way or seeing life, we can be persuaded …
Wol Euler admits to having to refresh her memory.
Stim Morane: Habits are rarely optimal.
Adelene Dawner: indeed, Stim
Stim Morane: So I would distinguish between habits and heuristics that have proven value.
Adelene Dawner: When I say that I think slowly – a lot of that is that I don’t use the heuristics, if I can at all help it, and thinking takes longer without them.
Stim Morane: Anyway, interesting topic!
Stim Morane: I need to go.
Adelene Dawner: cya Stim :) Thanks for the discussion.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye Stim..
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Thank you, indeed.
Wol Euler: bye stim, take care.
Stim Morane: Bye! Thanks for the chat! It’s a good example of many things in life.